Thoughts on economics and liberty

India killing innocents on the Bangladesh border?

I came across this ghastly piece of information in The Economist, reporting that BSF shot dead a teenaged Bangladesh girl in Bengal, while she was going back to Bangladesh at an illegal crossing. Apparently BSF has killed 1000 Bangladeshis over 10 years. [See also this report in The Guardian: " A single killing by US law enforcement along the Mexican border makes headlines. The killing of large numbers of villagers by Indian forces has been almost entirely ignored."]

Regardless of the underlying question (legal/illgal transit), IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN  this is a CRIME and should be loudly and clearly denounced by all Indians.

By all means arrest people whom you find crossing a border and check their papers. Deport them. But shoot 15 year old girls?

Unthinkable. Barbaric. I do hope this is not true but from all appearances it seems to be true.

What kind of a country is India becoming? Has BSF lost its mind?

Who is authorising such shooting? How would he/she feel if someone shot his/her 15 year old daughter?

I checked google and couldn't find references to this in India's national newspapers, but this has been reported internationally in many newspapers. Will the investigative journalists of India please wake up and tell us what is going on?!

I know my voice is one drop in the ocean, but I deeply apologise to Bangladesh for this crime.

As The Guardian notes, "Routinely shooting poor, unarmed villagers is not how the world's largest democracy should behave."

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62 thoughts on “India killing innocents on the Bangladesh border?
  1. chaitanya

    Dr.sabhlok,
     
    any killing of innocents anywhere in the world, is to be condemned.
     
    However, this post is irresponsible and useless writing. Simply based on couple of news reports you came across on internet, you go as far as saying “India killing innocents on Bangaladesh border”, as if its some kind of standard policy to just go into Bangladesh and shoot innocents.
     
    When you make such statements, you are *obligated* present more research and analysis of the situation. Simply, pointing to the two articles will do more harm by whipping up hatred. What the circumstances behind the killings ? Are they isolated incidents ? what is the situation on the ground wrt illegal immigration ? How many of them are killed ? How many killings are verified ? Has Bangladesh protested officially ? what is the official Indian respose ? If you really want to look into the matter, you should go into all these questions, reserach and publish it.
     
    I know your intentions are good, but publishing such hateful material, and using such broad strokes as “India killing innocents on Bangladesh border” will only further hatred. You will be feeding into the minds of anti-India fanatics.
     
    By all means, publish the Truth. But, a certain minimum due diligence is required.
     
    You go as far as saying that this is somehow covered up in India. It becomes clear that you have done VERY LITTLE RESEARCH, because on the very first page of my google search, i see that this reported in 4 Indian media outlets. On later pages i saw this item on deccanherald, rediff, zeenews etc etc. So much for your exhortation — “Will the investigative journalists of India please wake up and tell us what is going on?!” .
    http://www.newkerala.com/news/world/fullnews-126310.html
    http://www.sify.com/news/bangladesh-protests-alleged-killing-of-youth-by-bsf-news-international-lbqtOfebdjh.html
    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/india-reiterates-commitment-to-zero-death-in-bangladesh-border_100491130.html
    From this link: “Pillai also reiterated New Delhi’s regret for the killing of a 15-year-old girl on January 7 and said a court of inquiry was underway to punish the perpetrators.”
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/Bangladesh-lodges-strong-protest-against-girl-s-killing/Article1-651554.aspx
     

     
  2. chaitanya

    Dr.sabhlok,
     
    any killing of innocents anywhere in the world, is to be condemned.
     
    However, this post is irresponsible and useless writing. Simply based on couple of news reports you came across on internet, you go as far as saying “India killing innocents on Bangaladesh border”, as if its some kind of standard policy to just go into Bangladesh and shoot innocents.
     
    When you make such statements, you are *obligated* present more research and analysis of the situation. Simply, pointing to the two articles will do more harm by whipping up hatred. What the circumstances behind the killings ? Are they isolated incidents ? what is the situation on the ground wrt illegal immigration ? How many of them are killed ? How many killings are verified ? Has Bangladesh protested officially ? what is the official Indian respose ? If you really want to look into the matter, you should go into all these questions, reserach and publish it.
     
    I know your intentions are good, but publishing such hateful material, and using such broad strokes as “India killing innocents on Bangladesh border” will only further hatred. You will be feeding into the minds of anti-India fanatics.
     
    By all means, publish the Truth. But, a certain minimum due diligence is required.
     
    You go as far as saying that this is somehow covered up in India. It becomes clear that you have done VERY LITTLE RESEARCH, because on the very first page of my google search, i see that this reported in 4 Indian media outlets. On later pages i saw this item on deccanherald, rediff, zeenews etc etc. So much for your exhortation — “Will the investigative journalists of India please wake up and tell us what is going on?!” .
    http://www.newkerala.com/news/world/fullnews-126310.html
    http://www.sify.com/news/bangladesh-protests-alleged-killing-of-youth-by-bsf-news-international-lbqtOfebdjh.html
    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/india-reiterates-commitment-to-zero-death-in-bangladesh-border_100491130.html
    From this link: “Pillai also reiterated New Delhi’s regret for the killing of a 15-year-old girl on January 7 and said a court of inquiry was underway to punish the perpetrators.”
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/Bangladesh-lodges-strong-protest-against-girl-s-killing/Article1-651554.aspx
     

     
  3. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Chaitanya

    The Economist and The Guardian are not run-of-the-mill yellow journals They do not usually publish unresearched information. The claim made in these reports is that BSF has killed nearly 1000 people. Some specific stories are cited in The Guardian.

    I am only raising this issue for it can easily besmirch India’s name across the world. 

    Recall that the record of Indian police and army is not very good – read Amnesty International website reports for details. I personally have FIRST HAND information (when I was DC Barpeta) of one of our paramilitary units involved in planting weapons on INNOCENT people killed in “encounters”. I therefore KNOW FOR SURE (100% SURE) that some Indian armed officers and units are capable of heinous crime unless they are properly guided and controlled by their superiors.

    The newsreports you cite are NOT investigative reports – merely confirm the single incident, and provide an official Indian report that confirms this took place. While official Indian reports are generally reliable, they should be supplemented by careful journalism, particularly where international newspapers are raising questions.

    I’m calling on a investigative journalist to seriously check out this story. I trust you do not mind my finding out the truth? Don’t you want to know whether nearly 999 others have been similarly killed?  Don’t you want the claims made in international magazines/newspapers to be rebutted – if they are false?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  4. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Chaitanya

    The Economist and The Guardian are not run-of-the-mill yellow journals They do not usually publish unresearched information. The claim made in these reports is that BSF has killed nearly 1000 people. Some specific stories are cited in The Guardian.

    I am only raising this issue for it can easily besmirch India’s name across the world. 

    Recall that the record of Indian police and army is not very good – read Amnesty International website reports for details. I personally have FIRST HAND information (when I was DC Barpeta) of one of our paramilitary units involved in planting weapons on INNOCENT people killed in “encounters”. I therefore KNOW FOR SURE (100% SURE) that some Indian armed officers and units are capable of heinous crime unless they are properly guided and controlled by their superiors.

    The newsreports you cite are NOT investigative reports – merely confirm the single incident, and provide an official Indian report that confirms this took place. While official Indian reports are generally reliable, they should be supplemented by careful journalism, particularly where international newspapers are raising questions.

    I’m calling on a investigative journalist to seriously check out this story. I trust you do not mind my finding out the truth? Don’t you want to know whether nearly 999 others have been similarly killed?  Don’t you want the claims made in international magazines/newspapers to be rebutted – if they are false?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  5. chaitanya

    Dr.Sabhlok,
     
    I have no problem if someone wants to find the Truth. In fact i clearly said that in my earlier post “By all means, publish the Truth. But,  a certain minimum due diligence is required.”
     
    I found fault with your post for several reasons:
     
    1. You did not appear to do minimum research.
    For example, you said “I checked google and couldn’t find references to this in India’s national newspapers”. I showed references that many indian newspaper infact carried the report.
    Report in India’s national news paper “Hindu”:
    http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1100654.ece
     
    2. you implied that there was somekind of cover-up in India.
    Clearly, it was publicly reported, and was brought to attention of highest levels of govt.
     
    3. Your title was “India killing innocents on Bangladesh border”.
     
    Iam sure you see the difference between “A BSF personnel kills a bangladeshi girl” (vs) “India killing innocents on Bangla border”. The latter is too big a generalization. It implies a routine indiscriminate killings on a large scale, as a matter of STATE POLICY.
     
    From the reports i looked, it appears to me that every incident is reported at higest levels of govt. So, people on either sides are aware of this. In that context, i think the overly-sensationalizing title is not justified.

     
  6. chaitanya

    Dr.Sabhlok,
     
    I have no problem if someone wants to find the Truth. In fact i clearly said that in my earlier post “By all means, publish the Truth. But,  a certain minimum due diligence is required.”
     
    I found fault with your post for several reasons:
     
    1. You did not appear to do minimum research.
    For example, you said “I checked google and couldn’t find references to this in India’s national newspapers”. I showed references that many indian newspaper infact carried the report.
    Report in India’s national news paper “Hindu”:
    http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1100654.ece
     
    2. you implied that there was somekind of cover-up in India.
    Clearly, it was publicly reported, and was brought to attention of highest levels of govt.
     
    3. Your title was “India killing innocents on Bangladesh border”.
     
    Iam sure you see the difference between “A BSF personnel kills a bangladeshi girl” (vs) “India killing innocents on Bangla border”. The latter is too big a generalization. It implies a routine indiscriminate killings on a large scale, as a matter of STATE POLICY.
     
    From the reports i looked, it appears to me that every incident is reported at higest levels of govt. So, people on either sides are aware of this. In that context, i think the overly-sensationalizing title is not justified.

     
  7. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Dear Sanjeev
    I deeply apologise to Bangladesh for this crime!!???
    This is very Sorry statement you have issued I immensely agree to Chaitanya that your research is incomplete. You dont know about this more disturbing to me is that once You were DM of Dhubri invariably say once Karta dharta of Dhubri district and donot know about all this where this takes place??
    I know what is the matter here on the border both sides Mafias risk middle-men/smugglers for safe the movement of Cattle for which they have to PAY some bribe amount to each local BSF soldiers posted on checkpoint now what happens is that when smuggling is going on bangladeshi middle men need to come at border for handling cattle.There what happens is that the BSF men who have been paid lets go trade and if chance off Duty/Transfer of men who have been paid comes into place then trouble starts if the new BSF men is honest or if he thinks he has not been paid bribe would shoot anyone entering Indian border anyways this is not possible girl/boy of any age but 15years looks as an adult only at 2am in night with Cloth wrapped all over body.This cow trade is major funding to terrorism in India even local villagers are involved they would even kill BSF soldiers if they try to halt process.I and my all family are in Support and Justify these killings even if they happen on Indian side this not emotional but bold sometimes War is needed for peace .After viewing this video I felt a feeling of Immense remorse I can’t do anything to stop this terror funding.
    I URGE YOU TO SEE VIDEO FROM YOUR OWN DISTRICT DHUBRI- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx21QLpsXLI

     
  8. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Dear Sanjeev
    I deeply apologise to Bangladesh for this crime!!???
    This is very Sorry statement you have issued I immensely agree to Chaitanya that your research is incomplete. You dont know about this more disturbing to me is that once You were DM of Dhubri invariably say once Karta dharta of Dhubri district and donot know about all this where this takes place??
    I know what is the matter here on the border both sides Mafias risk middle-men/smugglers for safe the movement of Cattle for which they have to PAY some bribe amount to each local BSF soldiers posted on checkpoint now what happens is that when smuggling is going on bangladeshi middle men need to come at border for handling cattle.There what happens is that the BSF men who have been paid lets go trade and if chance off Duty/Transfer of men who have been paid comes into place then trouble starts if the new BSF men is honest or if he thinks he has not been paid bribe would shoot anyone entering Indian border anyways this is not possible girl/boy of any age but 15years looks as an adult only at 2am in night with Cloth wrapped all over body.This cow trade is major funding to terrorism in India even local villagers are involved they would even kill BSF soldiers if they try to halt process.I and my all family are in Support and Justify these killings even if they happen on Indian side this not emotional but bold sometimes War is needed for peace .After viewing this video I felt a feeling of Immense remorse I can’t do anything to stop this terror funding.
    I URGE YOU TO SEE VIDEO FROM YOUR OWN DISTRICT DHUBRI- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx21QLpsXLI

     
  9. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    See if something is Morally/religiously incorrect for very large number of people you can’t ever justify it or sidelining the matter to please vested interests of small proportion of population at many instances on your blog justifying cow slaughter etc!!
    See you today said I am sorry that 1000people are killed this is all because of illegal cow slaughter thing which is incorrect outcomes can’t be fruitful they would be worse other matter is guidlines are stated that big animal such as Cow must not bear sufferings but see some videos on Youtube type of slaughter in Bangladesh believe me you would close in just 20sec!!
    Funding of Terror,Killings of innocent,Corruption at border is itself a Big risk by chance what happens if terrorists send warheads  to India?
    Do you Still want to justify brutal slaughtering??
    In my childhood I remember my grandfather had two cows these are so intelligent and loving animals just like dogs if you look into their eyes they would pamper love in you?

     
  10. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    See if something is Morally/religiously incorrect for very large number of people you can’t ever justify it or sidelining the matter to please vested interests of small proportion of population at many instances on your blog justifying cow slaughter etc!!
    See you today said I am sorry that 1000people are killed this is all because of illegal cow slaughter thing which is incorrect outcomes can’t be fruitful they would be worse other matter is guidlines are stated that big animal such as Cow must not bear sufferings but see some videos on Youtube type of slaughter in Bangladesh believe me you would close in just 20sec!!
    Funding of Terror,Killings of innocent,Corruption at border is itself a Big risk by chance what happens if terrorists send warheads  to India?
    Do you Still want to justify brutal slaughtering??
    In my childhood I remember my grandfather had two cows these are so intelligent and loving animals just like dogs if you look into their eyes they would pamper love in you?

     
  11. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Chaitanya

    Please note that title had a QUESTION MARK. I am asking my readers to inform me if this true. Whether the country has such a policy or not, the incident DID turn out to be true.

    Second, note that title of the article in The Guardian is “India’s shoot-to-kill policy on the Bangladesh border”. I am entitled to ask whether this is INDIA’S policy.

    Third, there DOES appear to be a cover-up in India. The media reports you cite do NOT investigate the charge of nearly 1000 people being killed this way in the past 10 years.

    I trust this clarifies.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  12. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Chaitanya

    Please note that title had a QUESTION MARK. I am asking my readers to inform me if this true. Whether the country has such a policy or not, the incident DID turn out to be true.

    Second, note that title of the article in The Guardian is “India’s shoot-to-kill policy on the Bangladesh border”. I am entitled to ask whether this is INDIA’S policy.

    Third, there DOES appear to be a cover-up in India. The media reports you cite do NOT investigate the charge of nearly 1000 people being killed this way in the past 10 years.

    I trust this clarifies.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  13. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    Your arguments are mixing up so many things together at the same time that I’m unable to respond! 

    What are you saying? That it is OK to kill 1000 humans for the sake of preventing (illegal) trade in cows?

    What kind of morality is that Sir? From which depraved planet do you come?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  14. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    Your arguments are mixing up so many things together at the same time that I’m unable to respond! 

    What are you saying? That it is OK to kill 1000 humans for the sake of preventing (illegal) trade in cows?

    What kind of morality is that Sir? From which depraved planet do you come?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  15. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    I wish if you could have understood my points written in detail but anyways the video of Dhubri that I have posted is enough to keep my point.

     
  16. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    I wish if you could have understood my points written in detail but anyways the video of Dhubri that I have posted is enough to keep my point.

     
  17. chaitanya

    Dr.Sabhlok,
     
    >> Third, there DOES appear to be a cover-up in India. The media reports you cite do NOT investigate the charge of nearly 1000 people being killed this way in the past 10 years.
     
    There have been high level talks on the matter, and Every Indian outlet has published the fact as it has happened. And still there is a cover-up ?
     
    First you say it has not been reported in Indian media. When i point out direct proof to the contrary, now you change stand and say it has not been investigated by the media outlets properly. If you refuse to acknowledge even a small mistake of yours, and give evasive arguments, i don’t think i can engage in any discussion here.
     
    One other point. India has a major terrorist problem that you will be aware of. Just do a little Googling on LeT trying to infiltrate from Bangladesh. Sir, There are practical realities to be dealt with here. I hope a person of your caliber will see through all the complexities around the issue, AND THEN give us an informed opinion, rather than giving an extremely superficial treatment of a sensitive issue.

     
  18. chaitanya

    Dr.Sabhlok,
     
    >> Third, there DOES appear to be a cover-up in India. The media reports you cite do NOT investigate the charge of nearly 1000 people being killed this way in the past 10 years.
     
    There have been high level talks on the matter, and Every Indian outlet has published the fact as it has happened. And still there is a cover-up ?
     
    First you say it has not been reported in Indian media. When i point out direct proof to the contrary, now you change stand and say it has not been investigated by the media outlets properly. If you refuse to acknowledge even a small mistake of yours, and give evasive arguments, i don’t think i can engage in any discussion here.
     
    One other point. India has a major terrorist problem that you will be aware of. Just do a little Googling on LeT trying to infiltrate from Bangladesh. Sir, There are practical realities to be dealt with here. I hope a person of your caliber will see through all the complexities around the issue, AND THEN give us an informed opinion, rather than giving an extremely superficial treatment of a sensitive issue.

     
  19. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    a) The sound on the video is not working.

    b) Remember that these cows are not coming from nowhere. They have been SOLD by HINDUS.

    c) You can NEVER block trade when there is a buyer and a seller. It always goes underground. Hence the idea of making this trade legal should be considered. That will also fetch India significant revenues through customs duties.

    d) UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE is it OK to kill someone who is TRADING. Trading is not the same as killing. It is NOT a crime.

    Please review your moral perspectives, as well as basic economics. When you are ready to STOP supporting the killing of traders, then let’s talk further.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  20. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    a) The sound on the video is not working.

    b) Remember that these cows are not coming from nowhere. They have been SOLD by HINDUS.

    c) You can NEVER block trade when there is a buyer and a seller. It always goes underground. Hence the idea of making this trade legal should be considered. That will also fetch India significant revenues through customs duties.

    d) UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE is it OK to kill someone who is TRADING. Trading is not the same as killing. It is NOT a crime.

    Please review your moral perspectives, as well as basic economics. When you are ready to STOP supporting the killing of traders, then let’s talk further.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  21. Sanjeev Sabhlok

     

    Dear Chaitanya

    RE: First you say it has not been reported in Indian media. When i point out direct proof to the contrary, now you change stand and say it has not been investigated by the media outlets properly. 

    Yes, I did not, given time constraints, readily find the references in the Indian media that you found. So thanks for that! At that point I would have been quite happy to agree that the Indian media had actually reported something of value. But they simply reported an official interaction. No investigation of the charges made in The Guardian. And THAT is the substantive issue I'm writing about. I want to know the truth about this, not merely some official statement. Don't you?

    Are the reports you cite sufficient in any form or shape? Is this a matter of 'talks' only? Don't we need to know what is actually going on? If the Indian media doesn't investigate I can guarantee that others like Amnesty international WILL, and that could well embarrass the Indian government further and harm India's reputation.

    Second, the issue of terrorism. How does that get involved here? Please explain how does trading in cows (as Dr Gogoi keeps referring to), or SOME terrorism (you are not claiming that all 1000 people killed were terrorists, are you?) justify killing a 15 year old girl?

    A LOT of people enter Australia in an unauthorised manner. Some might even be terrorists. Does that mean that Australia is entitled to kill them upon sight?!!

    Please, can you explain why are you trying to defend cold-blooded killings?

    All I'm asking for is the truth. Is asking that also no longer permitted in India?

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  22. Sanjeev Sabhlok

     

    Dear Chaitanya

    RE: First you say it has not been reported in Indian media. When i point out direct proof to the contrary, now you change stand and say it has not been investigated by the media outlets properly. 

    Yes, I did not, given time constraints, readily find the references in the Indian media that you found. So thanks for that! At that point I would have been quite happy to agree that the Indian media had actually reported something of value. But they simply reported an official interaction. No investigation of the charges made in The Guardian. And THAT is the substantive issue I'm writing about. I want to know the truth about this, not merely some official statement. Don't you?

    Are the reports you cite sufficient in any form or shape? Is this a matter of 'talks' only? Don't we need to know what is actually going on? If the Indian media doesn't investigate I can guarantee that others like Amnesty international WILL, and that could well embarrass the Indian government further and harm India's reputation.

    Second, the issue of terrorism. How does that get involved here? Please explain how does trading in cows (as Dr Gogoi keeps referring to), or SOME terrorism (you are not claiming that all 1000 people killed were terrorists, are you?) justify killing a 15 year old girl?

    A LOT of people enter Australia in an unauthorised manner. Some might even be terrorists. Does that mean that Australia is entitled to kill them upon sight?!!

    Please, can you explain why are you trying to defend cold-blooded killings?

    All I'm asking for is the truth. Is asking that also no longer permitted in India?

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  23. chaitanya

    Dr.Sabhlok,
     
    Iam done arguing with you. This will likely be my last comment on your blog. I assumed wrongly
    that i was coversing with a rational thinker who actually reads what i was saying, not someone
    who goes on self-righteous rants.
     
    Good bye.

     
  24. chaitanya

    Dr.Sabhlok,
     
    Iam done arguing with you. This will likely be my last comment on your blog. I assumed wrongly
    that i was coversing with a rational thinker who actually reads what i was saying, not someone
    who goes on self-righteous rants.
     
    Good bye.

     
  25. chaitanya

    Also, i STRONGLY object to your statement  "can you explain why are you trying to defend
    cold-blooded killings?". In the very first line of the whole thread i said,
    "any killing of innocents anywhere in the world, is to be condemned."

    I demand an apology from you on that, and take back your statement.

     
  26. chaitanya

    Also, i STRONGLY object to your statement  "can you explain why are you trying to defend
    cold-blooded killings?". In the very first line of the whole thread i said,
    "any killing of innocents anywhere in the world, is to be condemned."

    I demand an apology from you on that, and take back your statement.

     
  27. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    No Chaitanya, no apologies on this, I’m afraid.

    You may have said that killing innocents is to be condemned in passing in your first comment but ALL your comments have been defensive of the BSF/Government of India. You did NOT condemn the idea that nearly 1000 innocents might have been killed. You did express shock and ask for a greater investigation. And you ended up talking about terrorism and that implied you think that BSF is entitled to shoot anyone who crosses the border.

    Defensive and spurious arguments – that attempted to brush the whole thing under the carpet.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  28. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    No Chaitanya, no apologies on this, I’m afraid.

    You may have said that killing innocents is to be condemned in passing in your first comment but ALL your comments have been defensive of the BSF/Government of India. You did NOT condemn the idea that nearly 1000 innocents might have been killed. You did express shock and ask for a greater investigation. And you ended up talking about terrorism and that implied you think that BSF is entitled to shoot anyone who crosses the border.

    Defensive and spurious arguments – that attempted to brush the whole thing under the carpet.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  29. chaitanya

    I wish i did not have to waste more time on this, but now i very clearly see what has happened so far in this thread:
     
    There are 2 seperate things:
     
    1. The ENTIRE THRUST of my comments was that Dr.sabhlok has literally pronounced a GUILTY verdict on the Indian State, without knowing the abc's of the case (as evidenced by his not finding the incidents mentioned in India's newspapers). In other words, it appeared to me that he has taken a "Guilty until proven innocent" stand. He asked for more investigation, but that was more like an afterthought. I know he used "?" at the end of the title, but Clearly, the tone of the whole post was "India, you are guilty".
     
    This is what i objected to, and hence asked him to provide a more researched opinion.
     
    2. An entirely separate thing is my *personal* view on the matter. (a) whether i justify it or not. (b) whether iam trying to brush things under the carpet or not. My personal view is very simple — "I don't know all the facts. I want complete investigation. But until the investigation is complete, iam not going to jump to conclusions and pronounce verdicts". This is a position any rational bystander, who has only a limited awareness of facts, would take.
     
    What happened is that Dr.sabhlok, instead of adequately responding to (1), has entered into argument on (2). Now, it is possible that he may have unintentionally misinterpreted the THRUST of my post, and entered into argument on (2) as a kind of knee-jerk reaction.
     
    Now that i have separated these two aspects as clear as day and night, I hope Dr.Sabhlok will now respond to (1) adequately without gettting into (2).

     

     
  30. chaitanya

    I wish i did not have to waste more time on this, but now i very clearly see what has happened so far in this thread:
     
    There are 2 seperate things:
     
    1. The ENTIRE THRUST of my comments was that Dr.sabhlok has literally pronounced a GUILTY verdict on the Indian State, without knowing the abc's of the case (as evidenced by his not finding the incidents mentioned in India's newspapers). In other words, it appeared to me that he has taken a "Guilty until proven innocent" stand. He asked for more investigation, but that was more like an afterthought. I know he used "?" at the end of the title, but Clearly, the tone of the whole post was "India, you are guilty".
     
    This is what i objected to, and hence asked him to provide a more researched opinion.
     
    2. An entirely separate thing is my *personal* view on the matter. (a) whether i justify it or not. (b) whether iam trying to brush things under the carpet or not. My personal view is very simple — "I don't know all the facts. I want complete investigation. But until the investigation is complete, iam not going to jump to conclusions and pronounce verdicts". This is a position any rational bystander, who has only a limited awareness of facts, would take.
     
    What happened is that Dr.sabhlok, instead of adequately responding to (1), has entered into argument on (2). Now, it is possible that he may have unintentionally misinterpreted the THRUST of my post, and entered into argument on (2) as a kind of knee-jerk reaction.
     
    Now that i have separated these two aspects as clear as day and night, I hope Dr.Sabhlok will now respond to (1) adequately without gettting into (2).

     

     
  31. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Chaitanya

    I’m sorry you are still not getting the point. Let me repeat:

    a) The Guardian has referred to a shoot-at-sight policy and provided research. The Economist did so, as well. These are very serious claims.

    b) I KNOW that a lot of untoward things happen in India, such as planting weapons on innocents shot down in ‘encounters’. I now for CERTAIN Indian armed forces and police have carried out some crimes against humanity in the past 60 years, too ghastly to mention. I have therefore VERY GOOD REASONS to suspect that these claims MIGHT be true. I did not say they are true, but I would be very surprised if just this one teenager had been so killed over the past 10 years.

    c) I called for the Indian media to investigate these serious claims.

    However, the Indian media has NOT been investigating these issues, perhaps because no one among the Indian elites has much sympathy for Bangladeshi lives. Two commentators including you immediately referred to spurious distractions (cow trade/terrorism) instead of supporting my call for investigation by the media. Why do you not want this to be investigated by the media? Why are you afraid of the truth?

    I want the media to check this out thoroughly. That continues to be my position. And I’m very sorry to note that there are Indians like you to whom allegations in reputed newspapers nothing. This simple matter is being dragged on by you – what do you want me to to? To NOT ask for an investigation?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  32. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Chaitanya

    I’m sorry you are still not getting the point. Let me repeat:

    a) The Guardian has referred to a shoot-at-sight policy and provided research. The Economist did so, as well. These are very serious claims.

    b) I KNOW that a lot of untoward things happen in India, such as planting weapons on innocents shot down in ‘encounters’. I now for CERTAIN Indian armed forces and police have carried out some crimes against humanity in the past 60 years, too ghastly to mention. I have therefore VERY GOOD REASONS to suspect that these claims MIGHT be true. I did not say they are true, but I would be very surprised if just this one teenager had been so killed over the past 10 years.

    c) I called for the Indian media to investigate these serious claims.

    However, the Indian media has NOT been investigating these issues, perhaps because no one among the Indian elites has much sympathy for Bangladeshi lives. Two commentators including you immediately referred to spurious distractions (cow trade/terrorism) instead of supporting my call for investigation by the media. Why do you not want this to be investigated by the media? Why are you afraid of the truth?

    I want the media to check this out thoroughly. That continues to be my position. And I’m very sorry to note that there are Indians like you to whom allegations in reputed newspapers nothing. This simple matter is being dragged on by you – what do you want me to to? To NOT ask for an investigation?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  33. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    My fingers are red but still I type for furnishing your info
     
    Cows and calves and other milch and draught cattle
    If state government want they can allow the slaughter of cow.
    in 1950 the preamble of the constitution was not secular so they allowed
    But in 1976 42 amendmend of the preamble of the constitution
    WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly
    resolved to constitute India into a 1[SOVEREIGN
    SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and
    to secure to all its citizens:
    the word secular was not defined in constitution of India but in a case
    S R Bommai V/S union of India Supereme court define as secular in India means not anti religion but to respected all the religion.
    so by allowing cow slaughter states are disrespecting Hindu a cow is god for Hindu
    this is against main feature (Preamble) of the constitution of India.
    when the ban on cow slaughter will be under article 48 no other lstate judgement will be applicable on the state where the state government is not banned the cow slaughter.
    but if once we prove it as unconstitutional no one can not kill cow for beef or skin.
    bann on cow slaughter is not violating any bodies religious right under article 25 of the constitution.So protecting mother cow should be under article 25 of the constitution.
    on demolishion of the Babri structure government and court says this is unconstitutional and against the secular thoughts of India. against the preamble that is secular
    through court we can argue for cow protection also.

    Justice Rangnath Mishra and Guman mull Lodha committee report also says cow is god for hindu and more over our veda and puran says which is acceptable to court.
    please try to prove it as unconstitutional so that no law can permits to kill cow.

    preabmle of the constituion:
    WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly

    resolved to constitute India into a 1[SOVEREIGN
    SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and
    to secure to all its citizens:
    Please define secular in India and bann cow slaughter other wise bann on purchase sell or eating of beef.
    JUSTICE, social, economic and political; no social justice for many crore Hindu as their mother cow is been killed for some bodies taste and money
    LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and:
    worship; can hindu do the worship by protecting cow
    EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
    and to promote among them all: when on demolishion of a structure state government can be removed and on killing of cow no action where is the equality.
    FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual
    and the 2[unity and integrity of the Nation]; where is my or a many Hindu's Dignity when government allows to kill the cow. brotherhood among the community will increase if government will respect every bodies belief Hindu or Muslim.

     
  34. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    My fingers are red but still I type for furnishing your info
     
    Cows and calves and other milch and draught cattle
    If state government want they can allow the slaughter of cow.
    in 1950 the preamble of the constitution was not secular so they allowed
    But in 1976 42 amendmend of the preamble of the constitution
    WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly
    resolved to constitute India into a 1[SOVEREIGN
    SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and
    to secure to all its citizens:
    the word secular was not defined in constitution of India but in a case
    S R Bommai V/S union of India Supereme court define as secular in India means not anti religion but to respected all the religion.
    so by allowing cow slaughter states are disrespecting Hindu a cow is god for Hindu
    this is against main feature (Preamble) of the constitution of India.
    when the ban on cow slaughter will be under article 48 no other lstate judgement will be applicable on the state where the state government is not banned the cow slaughter.
    but if once we prove it as unconstitutional no one can not kill cow for beef or skin.
    bann on cow slaughter is not violating any bodies religious right under article 25 of the constitution.So protecting mother cow should be under article 25 of the constitution.
    on demolishion of the Babri structure government and court says this is unconstitutional and against the secular thoughts of India. against the preamble that is secular
    through court we can argue for cow protection also.

    Justice Rangnath Mishra and Guman mull Lodha committee report also says cow is god for hindu and more over our veda and puran says which is acceptable to court.
    please try to prove it as unconstitutional so that no law can permits to kill cow.

    preabmle of the constituion:
    WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly

    resolved to constitute India into a 1[SOVEREIGN
    SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and
    to secure to all its citizens:
    Please define secular in India and bann cow slaughter other wise bann on purchase sell or eating of beef.
    JUSTICE, social, economic and political; no social justice for many crore Hindu as their mother cow is been killed for some bodies taste and money
    LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and:
    worship; can hindu do the worship by protecting cow
    EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
    and to promote among them all: when on demolishion of a structure state government can be removed and on killing of cow no action where is the equality.
    FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual
    and the 2[unity and integrity of the Nation]; where is my or a many Hindu's Dignity when government allows to kill the cow. brotherhood among the community will increase if government will respect every bodies belief Hindu or Muslim.

     
  35. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    It is incorrect in the extreme to state: “by allowing cow slaughter states are disrespecting Hindu”.

    a) There is NOTHING called Hindu. There are a diverse set of people living in India from ancient times, some who believe in something, others who believe in others. Please show me ONE reference to the word “Hindu” in the Vedas.

    b) Ancient Vedic people definitely ATE cow meat. It was offered as part of worship.

    c) Regardless of what they did or did not (that is irrelevant today), no one has any business to force their own views on others.

    Your arguments are incompatible with freedom. They are compatible with slavery to someone’s beliefs. Let people be free! How hard is that?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  36. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    It is incorrect in the extreme to state: “by allowing cow slaughter states are disrespecting Hindu”.

    a) There is NOTHING called Hindu. There are a diverse set of people living in India from ancient times, some who believe in something, others who believe in others. Please show me ONE reference to the word “Hindu” in the Vedas.

    b) Ancient Vedic people definitely ATE cow meat. It was offered as part of worship.

    c) Regardless of what they did or did not (that is irrelevant today), no one has any business to force their own views on others.

    Your arguments are incompatible with freedom. They are compatible with slavery to someone’s beliefs. Let people be free! How hard is that?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  37. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    STOP SAYING HINDUS CONSUME BEEF OR HINDUS SELL COWS TO BUTCHER

    I ask You do you eat Beef?
    As per your Rock solid justification for slaughtering cow and beef benefits I am now feeling that you might don't take it personally but 95+% of Hindus won't justify slaughtering cow in any form.I wrote you soo technically and you wrote I was Totally Wrong?Sorry but this is according to constitution of India and I am firm on my point.
    You have a facebook page ?Just open a discussion on this I Gaurantee! your Fan list would Fall significantly.
    On this Issue with your literally Vague justifications you are sending a absolute clear message that FTI won't consider emotional,religious&personal sentiments of a Indian.
    If a person who consumes Beef or support slaughter of a cow is NOT a HINDU!!!

     
  38. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    STOP SAYING HINDUS CONSUME BEEF OR HINDUS SELL COWS TO BUTCHER

    I ask You do you eat Beef?
    As per your Rock solid justification for slaughtering cow and beef benefits I am now feeling that you might don't take it personally but 95+% of Hindus won't justify slaughtering cow in any form.I wrote you soo technically and you wrote I was Totally Wrong?Sorry but this is according to constitution of India and I am firm on my point.
    You have a facebook page ?Just open a discussion on this I Gaurantee! your Fan list would Fall significantly.
    On this Issue with your literally Vague justifications you are sending a absolute clear message that FTI won't consider emotional,religious&personal sentiments of a Indian.
    If a person who consumes Beef or support slaughter of a cow is NOT a HINDU!!!

     
  39. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Do I eat beef? Of course!

    Even Hindus ate beef (well documented), but I’m not a Hindu. I’m just a human.

    Re: my ‘fan’ list. I don’t want fans. I speak the truth. The idea of ‘fan’ doesn’t occur to me. I want people to THINK, not to believe what I say just because I say it. I’m also not into popularity.

    FTI is clear on its religious policy: http://freedomteam.in/blog/content/religious-freedom-and-tolerance. There is NO question of banning cow slaughter. FTI is committed to freedom and those who don’t want to eat beef are most welcome not to, but they have NO RIGHT to stop others from doing so.

    If our farmers want to export cows (and they do!) for beef, then let them. If people want to open beef shops in India, let them. This is a fundamental matter. NO COERCION on anyone on such matters.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  40. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Do I eat beef? Of course!

    Even Hindus ate beef (well documented), but I’m not a Hindu. I’m just a human.

    Re: my ‘fan’ list. I don’t want fans. I speak the truth. The idea of ‘fan’ doesn’t occur to me. I want people to THINK, not to believe what I say just because I say it. I’m also not into popularity.

    FTI is clear on its religious policy: http://freedomteam.in/blog/content/religious-freedom-and-tolerance. There is NO question of banning cow slaughter. FTI is committed to freedom and those who don’t want to eat beef are most welcome not to, but they have NO RIGHT to stop others from doing so.

    If our farmers want to export cows (and they do!) for beef, then let them. If people want to open beef shops in India, let them. This is a fundamental matter. NO COERCION on anyone on such matters.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  41. roman

    dr. Sabhlok,
    At first i thank you for your observe and pick up the reality.i am from chittagong at bangladesh.from this coloum everybody objects on you.i request them to come bangladesh for see the screaming of poor farmers at border.everyday news and human rights protest again there killing.your statistics is not correct.it more than 1000 in 10 years.only 2010 ,256 villagers
    are killed.it is a matter of upset that indian media cant recognize it.may be they don’t want to publish it.bsf say that they do this against terrorist.are the poor farmers look like terrorist to them?everyday meeting held among bdr and bsf.but no result has come.i have seen a few comment above.
    Everybody protest at sabhlok coloum.i request them to come here to see the truth.i will keep him at my home as my guest.i will take you to the grave of filane
    and others.you cant give their life but i wish you can show some sorrow.and thus you all will find your answer.at last i say that Humanity is first thing and real relagion.

     
  42. roman

    dr. Sabhlok,
    At first i thank you for your observe and pick up the reality.i am from chittagong at bangladesh.from this coloum everybody objects on you.i request them to come bangladesh for see the screaming of poor farmers at border.everyday news and human rights protest again there killing.your statistics is not correct.it more than 1000 in 10 years.only 2010 ,256 villagers
    are killed.it is a matter of upset that indian media cant recognize it.may be they don’t want to publish it.bsf say that they do this against terrorist.are the poor farmers look like terrorist to them?everyday meeting held among bdr and bsf.but no result has come.i have seen a few comment above.
    Everybody protest at sabhlok coloum.i request them to come here to see the truth.i will keep him at my home as my guest.i will take you to the grave of filane
    and others.you cant give their life but i wish you can show some sorrow.and thus you all will find your answer.at last i say that Humanity is first thing and real relagion.

     
  43. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Thanks, Roman

    You have a precise number: 256 killed in 2010. Where did you get that data from? Could you cite the source? Second, if you can photograph/video the people who have suffered in this process, I’m happy to post those on my blog so that further investigations can be prompted.

    I agree. Even “terrorists” (if any) should not be shot/harmed without due trial (unless they have attacked first).

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  44. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Thanks, Roman

    You have a precise number: 256 killed in 2010. Where did you get that data from? Could you cite the source? Second, if you can photograph/video the people who have suffered in this process, I’m happy to post those on my blog so that further investigations can be prompted.

    I agree. Even “terrorists” (if any) should not be shot/harmed without due trial (unless they have attacked first).

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  45. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Sanjeev You don't know both sides of the coin it is not BSF but BDR which constantly intrudes into Indian territory that's reason one need to take harsh stand.In 2001 BDR shot dead 16 BSF Soldiers at POINT BLANK RANGE.I feel so sorrow India being a such Big country than Bangladesh has no influence on it.China intrudes India constantly if such incident would have ever happened by Indian side then China would have screwed us tight.I really feel bad Bangladesh is a country which is in existence because of India.BDR is so Vigilant and strong then what stops them to protect their own people?
    Read this
    http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010507/bangladesh4.shtml
    http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=80&page=32

     
  46. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Sanjeev You don't know both sides of the coin it is not BSF but BDR which constantly intrudes into Indian territory that's reason one need to take harsh stand.In 2001 BDR shot dead 16 BSF Soldiers at POINT BLANK RANGE.I feel so sorrow India being a such Big country than Bangladesh has no influence on it.China intrudes India constantly if such incident would have ever happened by Indian side then China would have screwed us tight.I really feel bad Bangladesh is a country which is in existence because of India.BDR is so Vigilant and strong then what stops them to protect their own people?
    Read this
    http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010507/bangladesh4.shtml
    http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=80&page=32

     
  47. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Thanks, Dr Gogoi

    I thought I had replied but possibly it didn't go through.

    I won't have time to read the details you've sent (Roman also sent me some material through email). Sadly, I've got too many things on my plate to devote detailed attention to this important issue.

    I'm glad that at least some facts are emerging from both sides.

    But I hope that no one forgets the key point I've made: that this needs proper independent investigation to ensure that innocents aren't being killed whimsically by armed forces. 

    Also, let there be no attempt to mix two or three different issues together: e.g. skirmishes between armed forces on both sides, terrorism, cow-trading and this. The issue here is about killing INNOCENTS. I've called for an investigation to see whether this claim is true.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  48. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Thanks, Dr Gogoi

    I thought I had replied but possibly it didn't go through.

    I won't have time to read the details you've sent (Roman also sent me some material through email). Sadly, I've got too many things on my plate to devote detailed attention to this important issue.

    I'm glad that at least some facts are emerging from both sides.

    But I hope that no one forgets the key point I've made: that this needs proper independent investigation to ensure that innocents aren't being killed whimsically by armed forces. 

    Also, let there be no attempt to mix two or three different issues together: e.g. skirmishes between armed forces on both sides, terrorism, cow-trading and this. The issue here is about killing INNOCENTS. I've called for an investigation to see whether this claim is true.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  49. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Dear Sanjeev
    You could google type 16BSF soldiers killed you would Find 100of articles even TOI and Hindu etc have wrote about it.

     
  50. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Dear Sanjeev
    You could google type 16BSF soldiers killed you would Find 100of articles even TOI and Hindu etc have wrote about it.

     
  51. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    Border skirmishes are a problem but that’s not what I’m talking about. This blog post was about killing unarmed innocents, not armed soldiers on either side. Please stick to the point I’m raising.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  52. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    Border skirmishes are a problem but that’s not what I’m talking about. This blog post was about killing unarmed innocents, not armed soldiers on either side. Please stick to the point I’m raising.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  53. BDAF

    <blockquote>I feel so sorrow India being a such Big country than Bangladesh has no influence on it.</blockquote>
    And here, ladies and gentleman, lies the very heart of the problem. Given the situation on it's western border, you would figure India would at least attempt to cultivate a friendly relationship with a much smaller (and militarily unimportant) neighbour. But no such attempt is made with anything approaching sincerity. Given the myriad of issues: 
     

    Farakka Barrage and sharing of the Ganges waters
    Border disputes (including illegal criminals and drug-dealing)
    Mutual tackling of domestic terrorism
    Illegal border crossing
    Harnessing the seawater for both nations from the Bay of Bengal

     
    You might think that India, being the far larger nation, would go about it's dealings far more responsibly and equitably. After all, what is the need for this hostility?
    On two of these issues this political attitude strikes one as utterly silly and moronic.
    The cross-border terrorism is something that the Bengalis have made great strides towards tackling only recently. However one does not need spies posted to Dhaka to know of the internal dissent amongst differing factions of the Bangladeshi parliament (if it can be called such). The fact is that they are battling a deep anti-Indian sentiment in some quarters and any move India makes to give credence to their bigotry only stokes the situation.
    With that in mind the sharing of the Ganges waters and such contention can be used to further fan the flames of terrorism (or troublemakers). When India releases excess waters, it causes flooding effects in Bangladesh during the monsoon season. In the very least it makes sense for India to have a more meaningful dialogue about such issues; but no. They take the view of, "why should we? We are the bigger nation and can therefore dictate terms to Bangladesh!" You can clearly see why this attitude will not have good long-term consequences. India should look to be surrounded by friendly (or relatively friendly) democracies, not use it's size or economic/military clout as a bully pulpit.
    It seems even more a strange way to behave given that BD and India are not natural competitors.
    You can thus see the reasons for China's consolidation of it's string of pearls. Beijing forgave all loans to BD prior to 2008. They were building a fair share of infrastructure, including a highway (Chittagong) and ports (which made India very nervous). Chinese intentions may not be passive, but faced with this, what choice does Bangladesh have?
     

     
  54. BDAF

    Apologies for straying a little off-topic but I felt it needed to be said in light of what was mentioned before.

     
  55. BDAF

    Here is a atypical example of the BSF doing their great jobs. I hope you will print it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1DhDVS15iI

    I say atypical, because that’s the video the BSF chose to show the world. In most cases they would have killed him after torturing him.

    Here’s some explanation of the cattle rustling business, and how it works, as well as other details on these killings:

    (As you can see, the border guards stand to profit as well through bribery). It’s a shame on both nations. BD for it’s inaction. India for the killings.

    Luckily those responsible in the torture above were jailed. Most of the time, bear in mind, that simply doesn’t happen.

     
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