Thoughts on economics and liberty

I hereby anoint all Dalits as Brahmins. And I challenge anyone to oppose me.

Chandra Bhan Prasad, a dalit researcher and activist says: "Dalits can't become Brahmins". 

Who says that Chandra!

You are very wrong.

All humans are Brahmins. You need to RESPECT YOURSELF as a human.

Every human is unique. Every human is a magical creation never to be repeated. 

You are Brahmin. All Dalits are Brahmins. All humans are Brahmins.

Rise. I declare you Brahmin. NEVER SAY SUCH A STUPID THING AGAIN THAT 'DALITS CAN'T BECOME BRAHMINS'. I FORBID YOU TO DEMEAN YOURSELF EVER AGAIN.

Hold your head high.

DEMAND TO BE RESPECTED.

Sanjeev Sabhlok

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107 thoughts on “I hereby anoint all Dalits as Brahmins. And I challenge anyone to oppose me.
  1. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    On FB

    Sureshan Payyaratta:
    that is what our vedas says and bhagawat geeta approves any body can be brahmin by his knowledge, experience, and deeds…

    Sanjeev Sabhlok:
    Actually, I’m going beyond the Vedas on this, Sureshan Payyaratta. EVERYONE is so special and unique – and equal – as a human that there can’t be any human who is LESS than a “Brahmin” – whatever that means. The merit or otherwise of a person is a different matter. I believe that everyone is an equal – and if someone feels that they must be “Brahmin” in order to be equal, then so be it. As far as I’m concerned there is no subset/classification of human. What a person does earns the due reward/ punishment, but even then the person is an equal in principle, of all others.

     
  2. Ramesh

    In a organisation there is chairman, managing director, sales executives, supervisors, field workers, clerks, attendants etc. let us compare chairman, MD (higher rung) to braahmans and lower rung attendeants, clerks, workers etc to Dalits. The fact is that higher rung derive their importance and bear their existence to the very lower rung. It is the only the merit, ability, wisdom etc alone which distinguishes the people and not the status which comes with the birth-Geeta.

    So what is this nonsense of Braahman and Dalits? Isn’t that just arrangement for the proper functioning of the organisations (society)? The fact that ground reality is otherwise should become the matter of social reform. That’s all!

     
  3. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Ramesh, today the words Dalit/Brahmin are taken NOT as representations of merit or wisdom but as a STATUS in society. That is sheer nonsense. ALL humans are equal in status and are of ultimate value. None can reduce their status merely because of their birth.

    Hence I have asked all Indians to acknowledge everyone as a Brahmin. If needed, a new word can be created for the wise.

    s

     
  4. Ramesh

    Re: If needed, a new word can be created for the wise.

    You are right Sabhlok, that comes under Social Reform. Social Reform is must for Hinduism to sustain itself!

    The interesting fact is that nowdays and in days to come mostly Dalits and lower castes will perpetuate this caste system (for benefits like reservations and host of other minority benefits as a myself observed practically). Braahmans by birth (even though they have merit) who perpetuate the system have already suffered and will suffer for similar reasons economically.

    Today status is determined by ‘richness, money’ one possesses and hardly by the birth (even though they have the merit)! Therefore today Dalits are held in high esteem (for their better exposure to economic benefits). I have seen few friends(higher caste than Dalits) who have registered their children as Dalits for future benefits and accordingly they have got the same also! If the situation in villages is different then Dalits are responsible for them, Braahmns, higher castes can’t be responsible for that since everything (police, politics) is in favour of them.

    It is more that Dalits talk against the Braahmans and less that Braahmans talk against Dalits! Still caste system is blamed! Is that genuine? There was fatal mistake with interpretation of Chaturvarna, continuing the same is will ruin the humanity! Who is responsible for this?Dalits or Brahmans?

     
  5. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Ramesh

    Your points are a matter for Hinduism to debate. All I can say is that there are many parts of India with INTENSE social discrimination against “Dalits” even today, so things are complex, not simple.

    All I’m interested in is TOTAL EQUALITY OF STATUS of all humans, so I’d encourage anyone who feels he/she is being discriminated against to stand up and DEMAND equality.

    s

     
  6. Munish Raizada

    Very well said, Sanjeev. All humans are capable of being Brahmins (wise or educated/learned). Birth can not determine the status, education, learning and our deeds will.

     
  7. KK Verma

    @Sanjeev, you have said it very nicely and brought a core issue of Indian society. Caste system itself generates discrimination in some form or other. People who have gone through the existing education and social system here in India will not be able to understand much what you say. So they will abuse you, confront you and at times reject you.

    The caste system which you are talking can only be eradicated by unlearning.

    If Government takes responsibility of unlearning and remove the “caste” words from its various policies, institutions and literature. But the task is a daunting one and needs determination and power.

    Even if you say, “All humans are Brahmins.” The problem remains. Because division is sharp in Hindu society. People do not know how to respect themselves as human so I doubt if they understand when you say, “You need to RESPECT YOURSELF as a human.”

    I respect your emotions and agree that every human is unique. Every human is a magical creation never to be repeated.

    But can this caste system be eradicated from Indian society? It remains a challenge for all of us educated class of this world.

     
  8. senthil

    I am sorry, but what you are writing is as idiotic and perverted.. Its clear you did not understand who a brahmin is..

    Let’s leave dalits.. Are you yourself a brahmin?

    Dalit is a divisive artificial identity created by vested interests, and i dont know why you people are still sticking to it..

    i had already challenged your notions in my own blog.. if you can read those and counter me there..

    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/varnashrama-dharma-is-not-totalatarian/

     
  9. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Senthil

    It looks like some people prefer to bury their heads in sand, like Ostriches. The shameful truth about India’s caste system is not going to disappear merely by smearing Dalits. It is NOT their fault that they have been forced to organise. The reality is blatantly painful and remorseless for these people born into the bottom rungs of the discriminatory religion known as Hinduism.

    And yes, I’m a human and hence hold the HIGHEST STATUS of all. I’m calling on all oppressed people to throw away their chains.

    s

     
  10. Nitin Gulhane

    God is a creation of fertile minds to mislead fools. Therefore castes are important only for idiots and useless public.

    The castes will live until the idiotic beleifs continue. Seriously, what kind of a clown beleives that castes define people??? If they do, then we will have to beleive that Vishnu took birth from some Christian Gods behind.

    I know this is heretic but I am exasperated by justifications of castes in the society.

     
  11. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Nitin

    Caste is a DEEP and ABIDING reality for the vast majority of Indians both in urban and rural areas. Exasperation won’t resolve the issue. Maybe it will be useful to honour everyone equally.

    s

     
  12. senthil

    @sanjeev,

    Yes.. you are right.. some people, even though dont know anything about our society, bury their heads in sand, and start abusing the caste system..

    india’s present caste system as you read from the books, literatures and from missionary writings are different from what exists at the ground level..
    well.. you seem to be not interested in any of these details.. and if have any inclination for a open minded & fair debate, let me know …

    Let me come to your exalted claim of being a human, and then you start claiming “Highest Status of all”.. so when you claim highest status, then you are implicitly mentioning that there are people at the lowest status and you are more superior to them.. so your dubious claim of all humans stands exposed here.. you cannot claim that only you can have a certain value system and look down people who do not follow it, .. the very same discrimination that you accuse caste system of !!! isnt it?

    Next, let me come to your beloved india.. the india, that represents that class of english educated, ruled by a colonial administration system, wth the same colonial laws enacted by british, and by sucking out the entire people of bharatheeya traditions, who are the continuing civilization of our 5000 year history..

    So before pointing fingers at the enslaved hindu society, let me focus on the colonial india that you represent…

    the colonial india, the destroyed 100s of villages to create western urbanised centers.. the metros, the hall mark of your colonial india, polluting land, water and air daily on a continous basis.. the same metros, which created slums, with unhuman conditions.. i can add on N number of such accusations against your Colonial India..

     
  13. senthil

    /** God is a creation of fertile minds to mislead fools. Therefore castes are important only for idiots and useless public.
    **/

    In a mental hospital, the mentals look everyone as mental.. you people are like that mentals.. the persons who mortgaged mind to certain ideologies, or to NO ideology..

     
  14. venkat

    I respect alot Mr. Chandra banu prasad , and at the same time I can’t understand why DALITS become Brahmins. Dalits have their own culture and Identity. And as per vedas all educated men are Brahmins..its a bull shit. In vedas every one equal where as in practice people divided

     
  15. Anil

    @Sanjeevji: Honestly your proclamation “I hereby anoint all Dalits as Brahmins.” is very patronising. What you missed from the article has the real solution: ” but they can become capitalists. Once you become rich, you become free”.

    @Ramesh: Your comment “So what is this nonsense of Braahman and Dalits? Isn’t that just arrangement for the proper functioning of the organisations (society)?” It shows your deep rooted bias for caste system. You have absolutely no idea about Indian society. And you want to provide leadership to India? I had suggested in another post on this blog that go live in an Indian village for couple of months and tell everyone that you are a CHAMAR; see how you are treated worse than an animal.

    Caste system is the curse of Hinduism. It’s a cancer that is eating out the soul of Indian nation. This caste system must be annihilated.

     
  16. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Senthil

    “india’s present caste system as you read from the books, literatures and from missionary writings are different from what exists at the ground level..”

    It is the ground level that I invite you to pay attention to. Even a most cursory examination of the REALITY of India will show you that the Hindu caste system is not only alive and kicking but very powerful even today. And not just in villages. Show me how many “high caste” people have married into Dalits. A handful at most (among your contacts).

    Caste discrimination begins at home. Senthil, look into the mirror.

    s

     
  17. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Anil

    I’ve not been patronising! Far be it for me to patronise. I’ve only shown EVERYONE who is oppressed that all they have to do is to DEMAND equality. Since Prasad sees this issue in the light of “Dalit-Brahmin” and feels he can’t become a Brahmin, I’ve asked him to BECOME one.

    I care TWO HOOTS about “Brahmins” or “Dalits” as a classification. I care only for the person. But if someone cares for this “distinction”, then let him/her, as a first step, proclaim himself/herself Brahmin.

    All must be equal as humans. That is non-negotiable.

    s

     
  18. senthil

    /** And not just in villages. Show me how many “high caste” people have married into Dalits. A handful at most (among your contacts).
    **/

    Dont you feel, this is ridiculous to set this criteria? when some one is not giving me bride, then i am discriminated.. what kind of logic is it?

    the problem is NOT with caste system.. but with your mindset.. you live in your own wonderland, and then start abusing the caste system of NOT abiding by your utopian rules..

    I had already pointed out, how you yourself is perpetuating the same discrimination, that you accuse others.. you considers yourself as superior human, because of some value system that you believe.. and consider others who dont follow as inferior..
    You did not answer this..

     
  19. radhakrishna

    it appears that you have VESTED INTERESTS..the very word DALIT is not even existing into any of our vedic scriptures, actually the problem is this that SCRIPTURES are read in a SWEEPING manner with a BIAS against BRAHMANS..though being a BRAHMAN i don’t have any problem with this that anyone can be labelled a BRAHMAN, because we brahmans have lost all that AURA which our ancestors had, there by doing and preaching all this grave offense which in GITA is known as KARMANTA PRAVISTA…the term DHARMA in reality means performing duties as per VEDAS..it is even called as KARMA also..anyways, this is KALYUG and this breakdown of VARNA is something which is in accordance with this EPOCH of time..but the real problem here comes that such things don’t allow the DHARMIK BRAHMANS also to get united in accordance with BRAHMANTVA/BRAHMANISM so as to get everything straight..

     
  20. radhakrishna

    now you are saying that there is no need for BRAHMAN VAAD, then why this? ok, CONSTITUTION of INDIA recognizes me a BRAHMAN only, then i also must be allowed to declare myself a DALIT/OBC/MINORITY so as to get the benefits of reservation..and if karma and guna is the criteria of a brahman or else, failing those would strip me from the brhamanical status, then same must be applied to everyone,including politicians..that we would strip you and stop hailing you as a politician..i want to ask which VARNA is in tune with their SVA DHARMA right now? SHUDRA/VAISHYA or WORKING CLASS want to rule, KSHATIYA are already gone now by forming BUDDHISM/JAINISM and only BRAHMAN varna survived..that too it appears that it would remain no more..so stop preaching all these WISDOM which only pleases the sense organ and don’t make others a part of APRADH at the spiritual level, and also allow all BRHAMAN with SATTVIK GUNA to get united as ESSENCE of INDIA is ESSENCE of BRAHMINS

     
  21. radhakrishna

    in GITA it is clearly mentioned that if VEDIC scriptures are read and refuted by saying that there is no CREATORS then there is no point in pursuing the true knowledge..and our VEDIC SAGES never showed HYPOCRISY in terms of equality, they practised this EQUALITY by seeing everywhere as a part of ISHVARA, if brahmans are MOUTH of creator then shudra are FEET..even feet is required for body..it is just that BRHAMAN are MOUTH/MIND and there only work is to show society the way

     
  22. radhakrishna

    and moreover, if everyone oppose CASTE SYSTEM, then why to take the caste of her name DALIT..it is nothing but all hypocrisy

     
  23. radhakrishna

    @senthil:

    i agree with you, these urban,elitists indians, self styled problem sovlers using the methods of westerners don’t have any idea about what exactly is the indian society all about..they are dividing the people on the basis of some high and low, and i have already said that being a BRAHMAN i myself don’t have any problem with DALITS being LABELLED as a BRAHMAN as it might soothe them, but why to use this word DALIT first of all if CASTELESS society is the real aim? the problem is this that our scriptures only talk about the spiritual level and bodily conception is just a carrier to obtain the ultimate goal of life- MOKSHA..when scriptures say that BRAHMAN are supreme, that is not this physical body ,but the YONI/JIVA which is superior, physical body is temporary..and that all is the cause of all the problem

     
  24. radhakrishna

    /** God is a creation of fertile minds to mislead fools. Therefore castes are important only for idiots and useless public.
    **/
    the very thing to obtain god is to control all sense organs, what pleases you,what you want to hear, what you want to taste..after controlling these sense organs, you obtain wisdom,means you only think through mind..but using mind does not mean that person has achieved rationality/objectivity or TATVA..because mind also can control a person, and if person is controlled by mind, then again one of the sense organ may appear like anger,jealous etc..to obtain god, one has to overcome all the weakness and even has to control mind..this state of meditation is known as YOG, not that what ramdev baba preaches, gym exercises

     
  25. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Senthil, denying the horrible reality of the caste system is your choice. That doesn’t change the reality. The other issue: whether I consider others “inferior” – that’s your own concoction. Nowhere have I said it. You are welcome to distort the truth TOTALLY, if that’s your way of thinking.

    s

     
  26. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Radhakrishna, re: “though being a BRAHMAN i don’t have any problem with this that anyone can be labelled a BRAHMAN”.

    Please note that I DON’T CARE TWO PAISA FOR ‘BRAHMINS’ or any such classification. Just because some people who call themselves “Dalits” have been brainwashed into thinking that Brahmins are superior, I’m exhorting them to call themselves Brahmins (if it helps them).

    All are equal. That’s my message.

    s

     
  27. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    You, Radhakrishna are NOT the “mouth”, nor “shudra” the feet. That is sheer nonsense and the less we have of that the better. ALL humans are equal. Please let that be well understood.

    s

     
  28. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Good point: “why to use this word DALIT first of all if CASTELESS society is the real aim?”

    I fully agree.

    Repeatedly I’ve asked “Dalits” to stop seeing themselves as the oppressed. Take on the status of an EQUAL with everyone. And that would mean “Brahmins” taking the status of “Dalits”. etc.

    A=B, B=A

    s

     
  29. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    On FB

    Supreeth R Vasisht
    I am sure that all people are equal and would be great if dalits can become Brahmins, but by deed, will Some of the dalits become vegetarian? will they read ancient philosophy or atleast adopt culture and practices of Brahminical peoples… I doubt, anyway those who can are welcome, and I am not apologetic about those Brahmins who have no idea of enlightenment and equality of human beings, but in pure subjectivity, will dalits adopt cultural values of Brahmins, that nobody has stopped, the ball is in their court…

    Sanjeev Sabhlok
    This is not about “Brahmanical values”, Supreeth R Vasisht, this is about TOTAL equality as humans. I don’t care about Brahmins or Dalits or whatever people like to call themselves. What I care for is that everyone hold equal status as a human and thereafter be judged purely on merit.

     
  30. Anil

    @Radhakrishna: you give reference of Gita and Vedas, why should an oppressed Dalit or other lower castes care about these when the preachings and interpretations of these have led to their oppression for centuries. In this day and age the first principle is of freedom; this has to be the benchmark.

    It’s people like Radhakrishna, Senthil & Ramesh who have kept the evils of caste system alive. My only advice, wake up, the world has changed and it’s changing at a pace where the kind of opinions that you hold has no place; if not then you will be making life difficult for yourself and your coming generations.

    Jai Hind.

     
  31. radhakrishna

    “Please note that I DON’T CARE TWO PAISA FOR ‘BRAHMINS’ or any such classification. Just because some people who call themselves “Dalits” have been brainwashed into thinking that Brahmins are superior, I’m exhorting them to call themselves Brahmins (if it helps them).

    All are equal. That’s my message. ”

    by saying that u dont care for BRAHMANS or not cannot change the truth..ALL ARE EQUAL is a bogus declaration..the fact is that BRAHMANS are superior and thats why all this non sense that anyone can become a brahman..i have already said that i dont have any problem whether labelling or making a brahmans, because BRAHMANVAAD is gone anyways and times have changed..but in the name of freedom of speech, let us atleast don’t pass crass remarks

     
  32. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Radhakrishna, “BRAHMANS are superior”

    Sure. You are very superior. That is self-evident to all.

     
  33. radhakrishna

    @Anil: tell me one thing..were the opressions happening before the foreign rule came here..our sages have already said SHUDRA SAADHU..the problem is this that this that CASTE SYSTEM word is a misnomer, the VEDIC VARNAS is not CASTE SYSTEM..okk, for that matter, i hold VIDUR, the shudr in HIGHEST ESTEEM and his VIDUR NEETI is best treatise for the kings and their subjects to follow

     
  34. radhakrishna

    the question here is that BRHAMAN is superior or not..the question here is that can anyone become a BRHAMAN? or is it by birth..yes, it is by birth only..now, you are saying that ALL ARE ONE, then why to use these two words DALITS and BRAHMANS at the very first place?

     
  35. radhakrishna

    “Radhakrishna, “BRAHMANS are superior”

    Sure. You are very superior. That is self-evident to all. ”

    you yourself are contradicting..why do you take these two names BRAHMANS and DALITS if all are one?

    and why do modern age preachers always say anyone can become BRAHMANS?

    i suspect fishy in this also then

     
  36. radhakrishna

    “You, Radhakrishna are NOT the “mouth”, nor “shudra” the feet. That is sheer nonsense and the less we have of that the better. ALL humans are equal. Please let that be well understood.

    none of the sages have said this..and you are not a truth seeker, our SAGES were..so i would always take the defintion of SAGES and i can easily post here the statement which SAGES have said, but i would not do it

     
  37. radhakrishna

    and sorry, our SAGES were not POLITICIANS to have prejudice..they made sure that each human being sees their potential and carry their task..we with this system overcame so many hurdles, where as rest of the civilization have perished

     
  38. radhakrishna

    instead of bowing to the WISDOM of RISHIS, people have started LAMBASTING and RIDICULING brahmans..and i have already said, that i don’t have any problem with this also ,but preaching this KARMANTRA PRAVISTA is a grave offense

     
  39. radhakrishna

    if BRAHMANS is not a superior term, then why this MADNESS to be hailed as BRAHMAN which all these modern commentato preach? i just want to ask this..why dont they wait for their turn to get this birth as per the rules of PRAKRITI? even VISHWAMITA did a penance to transfrom his YONI from KSHATRIYA to a BRAHMAN

     
  40. radhakrishna

    and if all are equal ,they why are ridiculing BRHAMANS, you should have used the TOPIC as “I hereby anoint all Dalits as KAYASTHA/BANIYA. And I challenge anyone to oppose me.

    or whatever you are..

     
  41. senthil

    @sabhlok,

    the traditional jathi setup is one of the beautiful system, that we ever had.. It gave every jathi, the means to live, and the freedom to pursue their desires.. there is no one to control any jathi.. the jathi is the fundamental reason for the diversity of our society..

    but you people had been unleashing a continous assault on this system and trying to establish your propoganda as the reality..
    i challenge you to debate with me on those reality which you described as horrible.. i will break the myths associated with those..

    The worst ever terrorism that our society ever faced is the propoganda terrorism unleashed by people like you.. to continously slander a society, impose artificial allegations and then call for destroying the very society itself..

    Before you can term caste system as horrible, can we look at the dharavi slums, which was the result of your urban india? Your urban india cannot even live for a day, without exploiting the rural india.. yet you imagine yourself as noble human soul, who is all perfect..

    Next, Let me point to those superiority lines you wrote in one of your comment..

    /** And yes, I’m a human and hence hold the HIGHEST STATUS of all. I’m calling on all oppressed people to throw away their chains.
    **/

    probably you need to explain what you mean by “HIGHEST STATUS” which you mentioned in your comment.. so by highest, you implicitly accept that there is a lowest..

     
  42. radhakrishna

    @Anil:

    okk, i am here by assuming that you are not a brahman

    would u allow ur sister/daughter to get married to a DALIT/TOILET CLEANER?

    now if u wld say no, then ur a hypocrite,as ur going to contradict this ALL ARE ONE..

     
  43. radhakrishna

    and that author, CHANDRA BHANS PRASAD, when he said that DALITS CANNOT BECOME BRAHMANS, is in fact holding brahmans with respect…no brahmans have forced dalits to respect them, but i still see dalits respecting us till this day ..it is block heads like you who is dividing people here by making such frivolous statements

     
  44. Ramesh

    Sanjeev and Anil,

    Hundred times it has been pointed out that caste system has been sustained by the Dalits in recent decades and corrupt Braahmans (by birth and Dalit by quality). Neither Hinduism nor Vedas sanction the same. Past is past. Today we want casteism to be removed. It can only be done if Dalit rise up and ask the Government to take away all the reservation and stop playing minority game! Let the merit work. That is the only way. Today is democracy. See the change and then we will talk castism (if at all it exists the past way). OR let the social reformers take care of it! If castism is to vanish from the society burden lies on the so called Dalits. Let them rise and awake!!

     
  45. Ramesh

    Dear Anil,

    May I request you to go through the past comments of mine in this respect which have been left unanswered by you about the very questions you asked? Please pick up.

     
  46. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Ramesh

    I am inclined to agree with your comment: “caste system has been sustained by the Dalits in recent decades and corrupt Braahmans”.

    It is high time that “Dalits” throw off their chains and demand equality.

    s

     
  47. Anil

    Dear Ramesh,

    Please explain your comment “So what is this nonsense of Braahman and Dalits? Isn’t that just arrangement for the proper functioning of the organisations (society)?”

    I want to see your justification on this point.

     
  48. Anil

    Dear Ramesh,

    Do you seriously believe that “Hundred times it has been pointed out that caste system has been sustained by the Dalits in recent decades”?

     
  49. Anil

    Radhakrishna,

    I believe in freedom. I want to give my kids the best of education and let them make their own choices in life. I would let my kids make the choice of life partners that they deem fit. It’s their life. Period.

     
  50. Anil

    Dear Sanjeevji,

    Your agreement on “I am inclined to agree with your comment: “caste system has been sustained by the Dalits in recent decades and corrupt Braahmans”. ” is baffling.

    Dalits organise and demand their rightful place in society and seek to end discrimination and you blame them for the caste system? A mass of people who have been oppressed for centuries and till this day are being discriminated in every walk of life; you blame them for this evil. This is lopsided thinking. Very unfortunate indeed!

     
  51. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Anil

    The reality with discrimination is that it is always two-sided. The discriminator and the discriminatee.

    When 300 million Indians were ruled by 300000 British, the fact that Indians could not get their act together to overthrow the British sooner than they did pointed to a deficiency of self-respect (and action) in the Indians.

    Today, similarly, nothing stops “Dalits” (in principle) from claiming themselves FREE of oppression and setting up their own temples/ schools/ universities. If Hinduism Type A doesn’t give them proper status but they like aspects of Hinduism, they can establish Hinduism Type B that is free of discrimination and call themselves Brahmins (should they prefer that term).

    What Ramesh is alluding to is the fact that “Dalits” (even very wealthy ones) see a direct BENEFIT from reservations for themselves. For this petty economic benefit they are willing to sell their soul.

    The day a new Ambedkar arises he will break Hinduism Type A and take it to Hinduism Type B, or any other religion, or no religion at all.

    The fact that “Dalits” feel they “can’t become Brahmins” is a sign of mental slavery to dead ideas. For that slavery the slave is also partly responsible.

    s

     
  52. senthil

    I could only see the Discrimino phobia in all the replies, both in support or against caste sytem..

    Where can a discrimination take place? In a centralised authoratarian system, where certain authority is incharge of allocating resources..

    Our traditional society is NOT centralised, and NOT authoratarian.. every jathi is independant, and expert in their own profession, which gives them the survival.. every jathi had their own living space, and they all lived together, had their own deities, their own festivals, their own family rituals..

    so where does discrimination comes here..

     
  53. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Senthil,

    Please note that there is NO jati, no “group”. The moment you see any “jati” or “race” you see a collective. That is the FUNDAMENTAL SOURCE of discrimination.

    Clearly when you are wearing such strong discriminatory goggles, the oppression around you becomes invisible.

    Take off your glasses. Look at people as INDIVIDUALS.

    s

     
  54. radhakrishna

    Senthil,

    I am not in favor of this discriminative and politicized CASTE SYSTEM, where A caste, who actually are OUTCASTE/VARNA SANAKAR as per GITA and scriptures are domintaing….these people are the one who rants all this ALL ARE ONE and all

    and moreover, the arguments in favor of HINDUISM has to be given on through the VEDAS which our SAGES have laid down..and if u say that sages do favoritism..then sorry, the same sages have even said SHUDR SADHU..the same SAGES have imposed maximum do’s and don’ts for BRHAMAN VARNA only…then how come ALL ARE ONE..

    do these people think that they are above these SAGES?

    these sages were truth seekers..not politicians..they used to look everyone as EQUAL part of ISHVARA actually, not just glibly talks

     
  55. radhakrishna

    @Anil,

    talking is easy, following is very tough

    preach what you practice

    let us see the day your daughter would elope with a TOILET CLEANER..on that i would like to see you thumping the CHEST

    ALL ARE ONE

     
  56. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Radhakrishna

    I strongly object to your insulting toilet cleaners.

    I clean my own toilet at home. And I expect EVERYONE to do so.

    If you are not a toilet cleaner, then please become one. This atrocious ‘status’ consciousness is abhorrent and exasperating.

    In Japan the CEOs of companies clean their COMPANY TOILETS. Cleaning toilets is a sign of PRESTIGE and diligence.

    Your WASTE must be cleaned by YOU. That is the highest dharma.

    s

     
  57. Anil

    Dear Sanjeevji,

    I think your interpretation of Chandrabhan Prasad’s comment about Dalits becoming Brahamans is too superficial. They do not want to become Brahmans. They want equal status, they want to end the discrimination.

    Dalits do not need a newer version of Hinduism like you are suggesting. Most of them are converting to Buddhism, Christianity and some to Islam.

    As I have said in the past, I would say again to emphasise the fact that the biggest challenge for FTI, after finding good leaders would be lack of understanding of ground realities like the discrimination based on caste, religion, region etc. I see a lot of ignorance on this front. We will have to to deal with millions of Senthils, Radhakrishnas and more worryingly like people like Ramesh who try to hide their true feeling with lot of metaphysical hocus-pocus.

    Jai Hind.

     
  58. Anil

    @Radhakrishna

    Within my family and friends quite a few inter-caste marriages are happening; and I am glad that it’s happening.

    I practise what I preach, as a principle I do not attend any arranged marriages that happen within caste.

    Sanjeevji has already commented on your hateful views on toilet cleaners. Think, you are also a TOILET CLEANER, don’t you clear after yourself in the morning? If you have small kids, who cleaned their crap when they were infants, I presume your wife; look she is also a TOILET CLEANER.

    I wouldn’t give you advice to change your views because you and your lot are beyond repair. Wait for the day when you will be swept by a change that will put you and the views that you hold into dustbin (TOILET?) of history.

    Jai Hind.

     
  59. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Anil, please note I’m NOT asking Dalits to become Brahmins, just that they seem to think that is an “unachievable objective”. I’m saying that they have that objective in their hands today.

    Also: “Dalits do not need a newer version of Hinduism like you are suggesting”. I’m not even saying they SHOULD do that. There are many options for them, this being just one of them (if they like other things about Hinduism).

    In general, I’m asking ALL people to please recognise their shared nature – both biological and mental; and work together as EQUALS, for shared goals such as liberty.

    s

     
  60. radhakrishna

    @Sanjeev

    oho, now ur defending them

    you only refer to them as HUMAN BEING and ALL ARE ONE, the day your daughter elopes with them…or someone else in family do so

    and if you say ALL ARE ONE, then marry ur family females with them first

    why don’t you become HARBINGER of change

    instead of bashing BRAHMANS

     
  61. radhakrishna

    @anil

    don’t play tricks with me you OUTCASTE VARNA

    i am just asking you to give ur daughters hand to a TOILET CLEANER..as ALL ARE one right

    in your family, whatever marriages has happened are they from the poor trodden sections of the society?

    those marriages are on the basis of MONEY..right

    give me instance when ur family females marry a destitute poor

    ALL ARE ONE right

     
  62. radhakrishna

    FYI, we are funding for the education of my daughter’s guardians

    and i dont consider her as a maid

    now isnt this DIGNITY OF LABOR?

     
  63. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Radhakrishna

    I’m NOT bashing Brahmins! I’m elevating them to the same status of all – of humans. Be a human. That’s the ultimate status.

    And re: my daughter. Her life is going to be her business. Let her grow up and decide for herself. It is only MY life that I’m responsible for. And I married a person on her merit, not caste/religion. I married (as a human – the highest status of all) under the Special Marriages Act, with three witnesses who signed an official government register.

    s

     
  64. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Radhakrishna

    You bring great shame to India by insulting an outstanding person like Anil Sharma with “Hindu” insults like “outcaste varna”. The presence of people like you is enough to put anyone off Hinduism for life.

    Anil is an outstanding human being and is working to bring liberty and good governance to India. His merit is unquestioned.

    Please refrain from such language. And please don’t get personal about this. Stick to the issue. You seem to forget that this is about a PRINCIPLE, not about individuals.

    s

     
  65. Anil

    @Radhakrishna,

    No not “ALL ARE ONE” that’s a wrong premise to start. Think all are free. Freedom, do you understand that word? If you understand this then all this moronic arguments that you are making will fizzle out.

    My kids, your daughter, your maids kids, a toilet cleaners kids; they are all created equal. They should have freedom to choose their life partners.

    Did you think over

    “Think, you are also a TOILET CLEANER, don’t you clean after yourself in the morning? If you have small kids, who cleaned their crap when they were infants, I presume your wife; look she is also a TOILET CLEANER.”

    Jai Hind.

     
  66. Ramesh

    Dear Anil,

    Re: Please explain your comment “So what is this nonsense of Braahman and Dalits? Isn’t that just arrangement for the proper functioning of the organisations (society)?”

    Your problem is that you read out of context and such grave mistakes are committed by the FALLLEN/CORRUPT Brahmans (termed as Shudra) in Hinduism. Here is the original context: “In a organisation there is chairman, managing director, sales executives, supervisors, field workers, clerks, attendants etc. let us compare chairman, MD (higher rung) to braahmans and lower rung attendeants, clerks, workers etc to Dalits. The fact is that higher rung derive their importance and bear their existence to the very lower rung. It is the only the merit, ability, wisdom etc alone which distinguishes the people and not the status which comes with the birth-Geeta.”

    In future, for want of proper selection procedure, it may happen that son of the Director of the company may become a director, son of clerk may become the clerk only …etc due to neglect of the merit, favouritism, corruption and for all the vices getting introduced in the system. That time director class may be treated as a something like Brahman caste, clerical class something like Dalit caste even though on actual merit Dalit class are superior to Brahman class simply because of the deterioration of the system. This is what happened about Hinduism due to everybody becoming (unqualified) Jnani in the name of equality without any reference to the MERIT.

    Thus by Brahman and Dalit only level of merit was meant. Merit has nothing to do with birth (of course it is a function of environment and gene, thing is different to that extent). And you will agree that merit is the best arrangement for proper functioning of the organisations and so the society. Did it become clear to you?

    Why are you keeping mum on reservation issue? Do you want freebies, free lunch? If no and have self esteem then let us organise a movement against reservation which will only succeed with the people of you kind. Are you ready? If you are sincere Please do answer this last part of the comment. Rest is less important.

     
  67. Ramesh

    Dear Anil,

    Re: Do you seriously believe that “Hundred times it has been pointed out that caste system has been sustained by the Dalits in recent decades”?

    Not only I said it but the people of the caliber of Sanjeev endorse it. If you cannot analyse the same for want of sincerity and fact on ground and as has been pointed out by me and others explicitly, the only way left for you people is to just follow what the wiser preach without questioning. Because no body can ever convince you people without you taking the initiative. And this is exactly how the caste system was kept sustained in Hinduism!

    Brahman girls run away with Dalits Boys who just know ‘learn to think’ and such girls are most lucky, auspicious and most revered in Hinduism. Ravan was Brahman by birth but degraded than the Dalits and Valmiki was degraded Dalit by birth but best of the Brahman. This is my Hinduism and proud of it and I have been spreading it. I never think it will ever contradict FTI.

    For the facts on ground the matter is of REFORM and present sort of politics (governement) will offer worst solution for the same. At this I am ready to do the “Shastrarth” on behalf of Dalit on above statement for those interested.

     
  68. Sameer

    Radhakrishna is a troll, designed to disrupt meaningful exchange of perspectives. It would do us a whole lot of good if we were to ignore him.

     
  69. radhakrishna

    “No not “ALL ARE ONE” that’s a wrong premise to start. Think all are free. Freedom, do you understand that word? If you understand this then all this moronic arguments that you are making will fizzle out.”

    but it is not me, the article itself states ALL ARE ONE

    the article never talked about FREEDOM status

    this is related with ALL ARE ONE only..so don’t change the topic and don’t play tricks here

    try to prove ALL ARE ONE

    anyways, you ain’t a scholar to do all this

     
  70. radhakrishna

    ““Think, you are also a TOILET CLEANER, don’t you clean after yourself in the morning? If you have small kids, who cleaned their crap when they were infants, I presume your wife; look she is also a TOILET CLEANER.”

    Jai Hind. ”

    again, you are thinking about your family, the same TRIBAL culture…MY LIFE,MY FAMILY

    by toilet cleaner, i meant the VOCATION, which even SECULAR STATE GOVERNMENT approves, who cleans toilet and shits of everyone

    now you want to bring change in society, so get you daughter married to this class of person who do this

    do you GUTS?

    till now you are just playing with words here ,but when i asked this question to you that to bring change in the society, would you allow your daughter to get married with these class of person who are downtrodden, you are neither saying yes and no

    and i am expecting YES from you, as articles and people like you are shouting ALL ARE ONE

    if the answer is NO, then cut the crap

     
  71. radhakrishna

    “You bring great shame to India by insulting an outstanding person like Anil Sharma with “Hindu” insults like “outcaste varna”. The presence of people like you is enough to put anyone off Hinduism for life. ”

    how come?

    OUTCASTE VARNA is very much mentioned in our scriptures

    sorry, the basis of INDIA is GITA,VEDAS/UPANISHADS and BRAHMANIC TEXTS

    i am talking about works which were developed here, not which were developed in your land of saudi arab

    and i can very easily prove that everything is by birth

    and who are the OUTCASTE VARNAS

     
  72. radhakrishna

    “I’m NOT bashing Brahmins! I’m elevating them to the same status of all – of humans. Be a human. That’s the ultimate status”

    no, thats not the ultimate stauts

    the ultimate goal of life is to reach LIBERATION

    even a SHUDR, if he performs his work properly can achieve LIBERATION

     
  73. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Ramesh

    You are talking metaphysics. Anil is talking the Indian Constitution.

    The constitution declares caste BY BIRTH.

    Hence all theoretical debates about Brahmin being a synonym for merit fail. That’s what Anil is pointing out.

    Not only that, there is deep-rooted agreement among most Hindus that caste is BORN INTO, not earned.

    Therefore while I take your point that “Dalits” are (in my view partially) responsible for this state of affairs, the weight of evidence is with Anil, who is pointing out the REALITY, not theory.

    s

     
  74. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Sameer

    So long as there is hope of changing someone through discussion, I generally don’t give up. And no, Radhakrishna has not seemed to me to be a “troll”. He is genuinely articulating his beliefs is what I sense.

    s

     
  75. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Radhakrishna, Thanks for your views.

    I’d now like you to focus on your own liberation and not worry about the mere ‘caste’ title of people and such petty issues. Please show your superiority through deeds and qualify for liberation. When you have achieved liberation, and can demonstrate evidence of that to the rest of the world, please let me know and I’d like to hear your views at that point.

    Till then, I’m going to have to let you go, and bring your comments to an end.

    s

     
  76. Ramesh

    Dear Sabhlok,

    Re: The constitution declares caste BY BIRTH.

    This is where the problem occurred. Had the constitution declared ‘income status’ etc, caste by birth could have been included in a far better way for social justice etc. Thus constitution has given the caste a ‘legal status’ while the status of the same in Hinduism has been matter of the ‘social reform’, interpretation though with heavy evidence on Anil’s side. That is why I say it is the state which sustains ‘castism’ in India and system gets developed into worst.

    Re: Hence all theoretical debates about Brahmin being a synonym for merit fail. That’s what Anil is pointing out. Not only that, there is deep-rooted agreement among most Hindus that caste is BORN INTO, not earned.

    This above issue can only be matter of ‘debate, Shastrartha (shastra+ Artha), social reform, throwing open challenge to the spiritual leaders etc’ and state espousing the cause of the Dalits etc has ruined the cause of the very Dalits. State at the most can only ensure the equal opportunity and can never thrust equality on the people (it will be socialism). Hinduism is thus capitalist in nature. State cannot interpret it (they do it only for the worst). Only Pandits from Dalit and so called higher castes can do it.

    Anil is neglecting this completely. He want state to set it right. This can be only with reservation, minority politics etc. This is pure socialism!

    Do you want state state to interfere into religion to set right the caste in modern times? Then it would need politics like Ramrajya, Chanakyniti etc way to which opens only through ‘Metaphysics, Vedanta’! Will you afford that? FTI is entirely different. So we can only be sympathetic (social reform) with Anil’s concern!

     
  77. radhakrishna

    @sameer:

    do yo u really think that i am trolling here?

    if that is the case, then i would not even have mentioned earlier that since BRAHMANVAAD has gone long long time back, and even brahmans have fallen from the disgrace…check it earlier

    the issue here is the topic itself.. ANOINTING DALITS AS BRAHMANS

    so i wanted to that CAN ANYONE BECOME A BRAHMAN?

    because,CONSTITUTION of india recognized me a brahman

    and, would not i get hurt with such CRASS REMARKS?

     
  78. radhakrishna

    @sanjeev:

    i am not worried about CASTE paste etc, as i know that this word is not even into existence in our sanskrit texts

    the only thing which is happening in the name of casteism is politics and nothing else…

    and even i would like to see downtrodden people getting up and get the social upwardness

    but politics would make sure that this never happens

    they implemented reservatoins, no one really knew whether it has benefttted dalits or not, though politics in the name of reservations have taken an ugly place

    yet i know, that no one would be able to eliminate reservations..this is confirmed

    caste plays an important and decisive role in indian politics

     
  79. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Ramesh

    Re: Anil: “He want state to set it right.”

    He never said that! He is not asking for reservations. He is looking for the provision of equal opportunity through high quality education.

    And I’ve strongly opposed the idea of state interference in religious matters. The idea of recognising “castes” through law amounts to blatant interference with religion.

    s

     
  80. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Radhakrishna

    re: “no one would be able to eliminate reservations”. That’s not true. Even Ambedkar (I think) only suggested these for 10 years.

    Today it is BJP which is at the forefront of the demand for reservations. Throw out BJP. And throw out Congress. The problem will get fixed.

    FTI is focused on ensuring equal opportunity for all. That will mean the ELIMINATION of reservations (in my view after such equal opportunity has been ensured).

    s

     
  81. Ramesh

    Re: He never said that! He is not asking for reservations.

    But he keeps mum despite of provocation on the issue of reservations. I accuse you Sanjeev to neglect him conveniently. Please ref: his comment trail http://sabhlokcity.com/2012/04/does-the-hindutva-philosophy-really-oppose-the-caste-system/#comment-135276 wherein he said “Of course state can never fix the caste system. But state definitely has a role to fix the discrimination that is borne out of this caste system. In US and UK at least there are very strict laws against race and hate crimes; this has surely made a difference in these societies.” and “Again I agree that there is no role for state to fix the caste system but it must absolutely deal with the discrimination borne out of the practices of caste system.”

    In response to this you asked him “What do you mean by: “there is no role for state to fix the caste system but it must absolutely deal with the discrimination borne out of the practices of caste system”. How must the state deal with this issue?”

    He is yet to clarify the same!

    I asked him “Re: All that they need is equality of opportunity and justice.
    Just state how this a state is going to be ensured. Reservations? Minority politics? And we will understand your stand better I think.”

    He is yet to clarify the same!

    Had he clarified these earlier and then made the comments on this post I would have better understood him. Do you know his inner thoughts? When you have learnt that art? (laugh)

    Without knowing him better your stating “He never said that!” you are likely to be blamed of partiality! (read it in light vein)

     
  82. Ramesh

    Re: That’s not true. Even Ambedkar (I think) only suggested these for 10 years. Today it is BJP which is at the forefront of the demand for reservations. Throw out BJP. And throw out Congress. The problem will get fixed.

    Problem is not so simple, Sanjeev. Can you search and say how many of those benefiting the reservations oppose it? I think less than 1%! I do not know even a single leader (even from FTI) from Dalits who organise and fight against reservations openly? I am sure such leaders themselves will be set outcast by their own people!

     
  83. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    OK, Ramesh, Let’s agree that Anil has not yet fully clarified what he wants the government to do. My sense (and yes, I do have a sense based on years of interaction with Anil – the person who prompted me to reopen the India chapter which I had basically shut and closed) is that (a) Anil wants all reference to caste to be removed from the constitution, (b) he is NOT asking for reservations, but he does think there is a role for (c) equal opportunity laws and (d) hate laws.

    My position is that I fully agree that equal opp. laws should apply for government jobs but not outside that. Let private people discriminate all they wish – at their own expense. Let them marry whom they want, hire and fire whom the want. Let them even say whatever they want. Unless they physically harm another person, no crime is involved.

    Let social reformers deal with issues outside the government sector.

    Anil agrees that social reformers should do this task, but has some questions re: equal opp/hate laws. The difference of opinion between me and Anil is very small.

    s

     
  84. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Ramesh, re: ” I do not know even a single leader (even from FTI) from Dalits who organise and fight against reservations openly?”

    On FTI we do not ask anyone’s caste. So I don’t know to what extent your statement is true re: “Dalits” on FTI.

    The problem is that we need to assure equal opportunity before we talk about abolishing reservations. That’s where the problem is. Also, social reformers are few and far between. Let’s ensure these things and the reservations issue (and the division of India into bits and pieces, by caste) will disappear.

    s

     
  85. Ramesh

    Re: The problem is that we need to assure equal opportunity before we talk about abolishing reservations.

    Equal opportunity and Reservations! Aren’t they contradictory? There can’t be sequence between them! In fact I think after abolishing reservations we can assure equal opportunity. How can you reconcile to this?

     
  86. Ramesh

    Re: On FTI we do not ask anyone’s caste. So I don’t know to what extent your statement is true re: “Dalits” on FTI.

    By “Dalits” on FTI I mean those members who feel discriminated in the name of caste as per Constitution or those who espouse the cause of Dalits in Society but or not Social Reformers.

     
  87. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    What’s the contradiction? The very purpose of reservations was to equalise the field for those who have been discriminated against for thousands of years. If a more effective way will do it (which is proposed in BFN), then reservations will lose their justification.

     
  88. Ramesh

    Re: The very purpose of reservations was to equalise the field for those who have been discriminated against for thousands of years.If a more effective way will do it (which is proposed in BFN), then reservations will lose their justification.

    Definitely you justify ‘reservations’ at least till such a time FTI Raj (or equivalent) establishes itself! I am horrified!!

    Can the reservations ever equalize the field for anybody? It is always at the cost of MERIT. When 50 seats are reserved out of 100 seats, you will be offering only 50 seats for the unreserved! Here field is originally 100 seats. You distorted it to 50!! And still talk of Equalisation!! This is contradiction. Since merit is compromised it will equally distort the outcome as well! Is it such kind of outcome which is the very purpose of equalization?

    Reservation may be justified in bus for woman, handicapped, mentally retarded and based on income (to be worst) etc that too on humanity ground. But when it is done in decision making like Ruler (MP, MLA), IAS, teaching, medicine, science only worst can be the outcome! Justifying the reservations on basis of caste would be labelling the caste as eternal as woman, hadicapped and relative poverty, state being fully responsible for the same.

    It appears that if FTI (or similar system) takes few centuries to establish itself you will be justifying the reservations till that time! I am dumb unless you clarify!!

     
  89. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Ramesh

    Re: “Can the reservations ever equalize the field for anybody?”

    I’d urge you to read the literature on equal opportunity. The view is that by providing those who have been oppressed with an ADDITIONAL COMPENSATING ADVANTAGE, the handicap of oppression is at least partially redressed. That is the underlying argument for all affirmative action programmes.

    And yes, I don’t see the possibility of reservations going from India before FTI members organise educational arrangements in a manner that brings genuine equal opportunity to all.

    The theory of reservations is definitely imperfect but for reservations to become practically possible to be removed in the Indian context you need GENUINE equality of opportunity.

    I do not support reservations as a matter of principle, but I don’t support 80 per cent of Indian policies in principle either. That doesn’t mean I’m blind to the need for a TRANSITIONAL PATH from current policies to the desired policies.

    s

     
  90. Ramesh

    Re: ADDITIONAL COMPENSATING ADVANTAGE

    I fully support this! But compensation should always be in the form of education, training and all that which equips them to face the race. That cannot be in the form of free lunch and even if it is to be offered it should be only in basic fields where merit doesn’t matter! And above such compensation is offered always on the basis of ‘oppressed class’ which need not necessarily base on caste. It can well be based on income, gender, physical, mental handicapped etc. Ambdedkar played a mischief basing it on Caste that too in all field where merit matters!

     
  91. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Ramesh

    I’d refrain from blaming Ambedkar. He offered a proposal which the WHOLE COUNTRY, led by Nehru accepted. Today, even BJP supports it. With 90 per cent of elected members supporting it, you can’t keep harping on Ambedkar. What stops these people from undoing the thing if they don’t like it? They DONT’ WANT TO DO IT. They are therefore responsible, not Ambedkar who in any event recommended only 10 years (and died well before the first 10 years of this provision).

    Today, I’m NOT inclined to have an anti-reservation but pro-equal opportunity platform. I do NOT have any strong views on Ambedkar’s actions which were ultimately not his but that of Nehru. But I do realise that the situation today can’t be rectified by scrapping reservations WITHOUT first providing genuine equality of opportunity. Your desire to scrap it because of a matter of principle is right, but not feasible.

    The only feasible solution today is the transitional pathway of FIRST ensuring equality of opportunity, THEN abolishing reservations.

    s

     
  92. Ramesh

    Re: Ambedkar’s actions which were ultimately not his but that of Nehru

    If you do not object Ambedkar I can understand. But when you pass the burden from him to Nehru there is doubt and smacks of insincerity on your part. We have already discussed it in other blog of yours wherein you called him fool. That others should not follow him thing is different!

     
  93. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Ramesh

    I said just because a fool jumps into a well we are not obliged to do so. That doesn’t mean Ambedkar was a fool! Just that if ONE of his actions is found to be foolish we are not obliged to follow it.

    I am repeatedly saying that it is WRONG to link the reservations issue with Ambedkar TODAY. By all means say that it was a wrong thing to do, but then there were SO MANY wrong things done in the 1950s. Till today.

    Today the blame falls SQUARELY on Congress and BJP as the main supporters of reservations WITHOUT offering equality of opportunity.

    Their focus is votes. My focus is India.

    I’m saying that AFTER ensuring high quality education for all Indians (see BFN for details) it should be quite possible for all sections of the public (including “Dalits”) to accept the end of reservations.

    I don’t see how anyone can expect to abolish reservations WITHOUT first ensuring high quality education for all Indians.

    s

     
  94. Ramesh

    Re: Their focus is votes. My focus is India.

    Let us all realize it and stop complaining about castism. That is a field for Social reformers.

     
  95. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Ramesh, I don’t see why I’m to be straight-jacketed as a political reformer. I am ALSO a social reformer, and retain the right to challenge the caste system. I challenge it to outgrow its hereditary foundations, and I challenge it to stop oppressing people just because of an accident of birth. I don’t want the government to get involved in this, but that doesn’t mean I should keep quiet about it.

    s

     
  96. Ramesh

    You social reformer! I am happy. But do you know Vedanta? If not hard core Brahmans and dogmatists, supporters of castism will cause you lot of trouble! :) (joke)

     
  97. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Ramesh

    I do happen to have been born and brought up in a Hindu family and so have a good understanding of Hindu religion and its various aspects. I have rejected Hinduism but not many good things from it (and other religions, or philosophies). That means there is a way to move to common ground. In this case the common ground is the individual. In Hinduism it would be the Self, the atman. All are the same, in that sense. Therefore the idea of varna/caste is a distortion of the key message of the Upanishads. That, in any event, is my approach. I also do not accept the concept of rebirth (which underpins caste), since there is not the slightest shred of proof for it. I believe rewards and punishments are earned, and paid on this earth – or should be.

    s

     
  98. Anil

    Dear All,

    Let me first make my basic premise clear so that there is no ambiguity in interpretation of my arguments.

    1. If I have to explain in one word what is my philosophy, ideal, what I strive for, what I want to see happening in my personal life, for my kids, friends, family, nation, the world etc. it’s FREEDOM. Of course with freedom, responsibility comes as a condition.

    2. Religion, religious belief, religious text i.e. Vedas, Gita, Upnishads, Koran, Bible etc. are matters of personal choices. They can’t be basis for public policy formulations or running a nation.

    3. It’s the reality of India that I have always in mind when I am making an argument or taking a stand. It’s not just some intellectual standing far removed from the ground realities. This is important. The problem of many educated Indians is that they are far removed from the harsh realities of India and this leads them to take stands that are based on preconceived notions and not on reality.

    4. As part of FTI my ultimate goal is to get to political power so that we can effect the governance change that India needs so badly.

    Now to specific points:

    @Radhakrishna:

    -“the question here is that BRHAMAN is superior or not..the question here is that can anyone become a BRHAMAN? or is it by birth..yes, it is by birth only”. This ends all the argument if you think birth is the basis of ones social standing.

    -“the basis of INDIA is GITA,VEDAS/UPANISHADS and BRAHMANIC TEXTS”. This is wrong. Refer to point 2 above. India is, or is at least supposed to be, run by it’s constitution.

    – “would you allow your daughter to get married with these class of person who are downtrodden, you are neither saying yes and no” . OK one last time, refer to point 1 above. My daughter or your daughter or anybody’s children, when grown up, must have the freedom to choose their life partners. Get out of their way, give them the best of the education, let them make the choices for their lives. Don’t be a religious frantic or autocrat, give them the freedom; why do you want to control their lives?

    @Ramesh:

    – ” It is the only the merit, ability, wisdom etc alone which distinguishes the people and not the status which comes with the birth-Geeta.” Please refer to points 2 & 3. The reality of India is very different. Forget about going to see for yourself what real India is, just look at Radhakrishna who thinks that every thing is by birth. You will be hard pressed to change their world views. Let me give you a real example from my village, there is a village pond, a dog can come and drink water from it but few Harijans living close by are not allowed to use the pond by Brahmins who say that the pond will be contaminated by Harijans using it.

    – “there is no role for state to fix the caste system but it must absolutely deal with the discrimination borne out of the practices of caste system”. How must the state deal with this issue?” The answer is strict laws against discrimination and hate crimes. In US and UK there are strict laws against racial hate crimes; this has brought down racial discrimination in these countries to a great extent. When I talk of discrimination, caste based discrimination is just one aspect; think of religious discrimination. Educated Muslims can’t get rental property in Hindu areas in lot of metros; this discrimination must end. Other kind of discrimination is regional discrimination. When goondas of MNS beat up north Indians, these thugs must be dealt with iron hand not just normal law and order case.

    – on reservations. As a principle I am against reservations. And I am in total agreement with Sanjeevji that : “FTI is focused on ensuring equal opportunity for all. That will mean the ELIMINATION of reservations (in my view after such equal opportunity has been ensured).” Before jumping to conclusions please refer to point 3 at the beginning of this post. The reality of India is that if you took out reservations without providing and assuring equal opportunity no one will even listen to you. No matter how much I would like to eliminate reservations completely in one fell swoop but we have to live with the consequences of political decisions that have been made by successive governments and political parties. We would need to prove our standing by first providing and assuring equal opportunity without discrimination.

    – I was wondering if everything else remained same i.e. education system, general state of mis-governance etc. but no reservations since independence; what would have been the state of the nation? I don’t want to hazard a guess but it’s likely that naxalites and maoist must have been ruling the roost in most of the country.

    – Are you a Dalit Ramesh? by your definition : “By “Dalits” on FTI I mean those members who feel discriminated in the name of caste as per Constitution or those who espouse the cause of Dalits in Society but or not Social Reformers.”

    Jai Hind.

     
  99. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Anil

    I’m in agreement with you except on this recommendation: “How must the state deal with this issue?” The answer is strict laws against discrimination and hate crimes”.

    Without going into a reference of US/UK laws (which I disagree with) on such matters, can you please tell me what exactly do you want these laws to do? Please be very precise. Since this is an important topic, I’ll start a separate blog post on this issue.

    s

     
  100. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Anil, please also note that I’ve ended the discussion with Radhakrishna. He has been asked to focus on his liberation and come back when he is an enlightened/liberated person. So your residual debate must now be with Ramesh only. My sense is that this discussion is becoming repetitive and full value has now been extracted. Let’s try to move on.

     
  101. Anil

    Dear Sanjeevji,

    On “The answer is strict laws against discrimination and hate crimes” let me try to elaborate on my thought process. Let’s take an example case couple of months ago, a Dalit teenage boy was killed by a higher caste person because the dalit boy had the same first name as the son of the higher caste person. Here is the complete story:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-15997648#

    Honestly, I do not know how a crime like this is punished. If it’s treated only as a simple case of murder then I do not think that it does justice to the victim and does not create deterrence for future such crimes. The emphasis here is on deterrence. I would like to see laws that deal with specific crimes borne out of discrimination so that they act as strict deterrence for future perpetrators. I don’t know if such laws can be formulated.

    Jai Hind.

     
  102. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Anil

    In my view the heinousness of this crime can be addressed through normal judgement processes in the murder trial. I don’t think additional support through “hate” laws is necessary, but look forward to your considered and detailed proposal. There are plenty of hate laws in place for you to look at. In my case these are all unnecessary.

    s

     
  103. Supratim

    Reservations will eventually become redundant in India through capitalism and free markets. If Education is freed from the clutches of the state, this can be achieved in short order.

    A case in point:
    In 2000, the total number of engineering seats in India was 145,000. Clearly then reservation policies created a huge amount of angst amongst deserving students.

    In 2012, the total number of engineering seats across India is over 1.2 million. Average number of seats unutilised/unoccupied – 30%. In addition to this, most university linked colleges have 3-yr bachelor programs in areas like IT and Comp Science, which have increased capacity by another 300-400k in these streams.

    Net result now – more engineers than the system can employ, but no real angst about not being able to study engineering.

    The next obvious question: but reservation in the RECs and IITs ensure that not all “meritorius” students gets into the institute of their choice. Yes, that still happens. Tough luck but you still get to pursue your stream. But, you will have a hard time convincing me that not getting into IIT is a life altering tragedy. Given the quality of teaching in India across both premier and non-premier institutes, it is really a question of just labeling.

    And, if it is just labels that a student is interested in, why restrict yourself only to India? None of the Indian universities or colleges find themselves in the top 100 global list, not even our exalted IITs. Go to US, UK, Canada, Russia, Australia and even China – they have better colleges than India.

    It is all about choice and ability to choose – RBI has significantly leveled the playing field, by making a global education possible for even middle-class Indians.

    I know this is tangential – but, just wanted to show how the whole debate about reservations is now so old-hat. Mandal was so early 90’s. Get over it.

    Cheers

     
  104. M Ravi Kumar

    I agree that no one is Brahmin by birth.its education,conduct& character of person is an important attribute of civilsed person. It is matter of regret to say that I’m also from Brahmin caste,but I feel shameful when some people think that they are superior by birth, just because they are born in Brahmin family.
    I vehemently oppose casteism at my village and fought my own relatives for the same.I demanded dalits should be treated with dignity and should be allowed to become member of temples committee.

     
  105. MITHILESH

    The caste by birth or by choice is not the question of worry , the real problem is explained as below:-

    EXAM SYSTEM 2015.:- FOR GETTING A JOB.
    (1)FOR GENERAL CATEGORY :- GIVE ANSWER OF ALL QUESTIONS.
    (2)FOR OBC CATEGORY:-GIVE ANSWER OF 50% QUESTIONS.
    (3)FOR SC CATEGORY:-PLEASE ONLY READ THE QUESTIONS.
    (4)FOR ST CATEGORY:-THANK YOU FOR REACHING EXAM HALL.

     
  106. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Mithilesh

    Please don’t mock people by “category”. This can only aggravate divisions in the society. The reality is that there are many SC/ST candidates who have got into the IAS beating many open candidates. That happened in my batch (1982) as well.

    Let’s ensure that everyone in India is treated equally, and ensure high quality education for all. Then this obnoxious reservation system can be scrapped.

    s