Thoughts on economics and liberty

A simple test of your God’s strength

Imagine that your closest relative has just been injured badly in a car crash and is bleeding profusely. His bones are broken and his brain is certain to get permanently damaged if he continues in this condition for another half hour.

Fortunately, I have good relationships with a lot of people and can assemble the following dignitaries (or experts) to help you. Whose help would you take? You can ONLY PICK ONE!

a) The Pope of Rome. He can pray and apply holy water.

b) Baba Ramdev. He can give ayurvedic medicine. (Or you can choose Sai Baba who will apply some vibhuti.)

c) The King of Saudi Arabia. He can pray. (Or you can choose Ali Khamenei, instead.)

d) An experienced surgeon ("unfortunately", this guy is not only an atheist but he EATS BEEF!!!)

Pick one, my friend. Test your God's strength!

The only God worth 'serving' or 'believing in', my friend, is the God of Reason. The God who forces us to think for ourselves.

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45 thoughts on “A simple test of your God’s strength
  1. Mandar Thakur

    1) Rome is far away from here…
    2) Baba Ramdev is busy tackling Govt…
    3) King of Saudi is praying for himself right now…
    4) so i would go to a surgeon.
      

     
  2. Mandar Thakur

    1) Rome is far away from here…
    2) Baba Ramdev is busy tackling Govt…
    3) King of Saudi is praying for himself right now…
    4) so i would go to a surgeon.
      

     
  3. Harsh Vora

    First, Baba Ramdev has never claimed nor expects anyone to falsely believe that he can save one from an immediate injury. He is rational and knows the importance of science where needed. So, your mention of him in this post is totally baseless.
    Second, God cannot interfere in the law of cause and effect — Karma. A person is injured, and he as to do what he has to do in order to get relieved or cured. His injury may be the result of a cause, which in turn may be the result of another, prior cause. Why bring God in between? I don't at the least think that this is a test for God. Nope. In fact, the man is only suffering for his past deeds. That's the closest to what I understand. 
    Again, let me mention that I do not CLAIM karma to be true, although I am very strongly inclined to believe its validity.

     
  4. Harsh Vora

    First, Baba Ramdev has never claimed nor expects anyone to falsely believe that he can save one from an immediate injury. He is rational and knows the importance of science where needed. So, your mention of him in this post is totally baseless.
    Second, God cannot interfere in the law of cause and effect — Karma. A person is injured, and he as to do what he has to do in order to get relieved or cured. His injury may be the result of a cause, which in turn may be the result of another, prior cause. Why bring God in between? I don't at the least think that this is a test for God. Nope. In fact, the man is only suffering for his past deeds. That's the closest to what I understand. 
    Again, let me mention that I do not CLAIM karma to be true, although I am very strongly inclined to believe its validity.

     
  5. Harsh Vora

    Sanjeev — There is no option for me to follow-up on a post i comment on. The option for following follow-up comments has disappeared. Any way to correct this?

     
  6. Harsh Vora

    Sanjeev — There is no option for me to follow-up on a post i comment on. The option for following follow-up comments has disappeared. Any way to correct this?

     
  7. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    It is VERY WRONG to suggest that people in car accidents or natural calamities are suffering so because of “past misdeeds”. That is a false assumption. Do not make false assumptions. There is NO scientific evidence of life after death or rebirth. The thing is simply purely imagination.

    Re: Baba Ramdev. I’m fully entitled to include him (or Sai Baba, etc.) because people believe such people are closer to God in some way (than, say, a person like me).

    Anyway, whom would you pick?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  8. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    It is VERY WRONG to suggest that people in car accidents or natural calamities are suffering so because of “past misdeeds”. That is a false assumption. Do not make false assumptions. There is NO scientific evidence of life after death or rebirth. The thing is simply purely imagination.

    Re: Baba Ramdev. I’m fully entitled to include him (or Sai Baba, etc.) because people believe such people are closer to God in some way (than, say, a person like me).

    Anyway, whom would you pick?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  9. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    What does that option do? (e.g can you edit your comment?) If you describe it then I might be able to find it and re-instate it. I’ve had a number of technical problems with this blog a few weeks ago and had to re-establish all its features once again. In that process I lost the previous settings. The comments box has been completely re-worked from scratch.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  10. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    What does that option do? (e.g can you edit your comment?) If you describe it then I might be able to find it and re-instate it. I’ve had a number of technical problems with this blog a few weeks ago and had to re-establish all its features once again. In that process I lost the previous settings. The comments box has been completely re-worked from scratch.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  11. Harsh Vora

     
    Re: There is NO scientific evidence of life after death or rebirth. The thing is simply purely imagination.


    A critical thinker does not rule out a possibility simply because there is no scientific evidence available owing to lack of resources and development. Just because there is no scientific backing of rebirth or karma, I am not willing to conclude that there is no such theory of cause and effect. Indeed, that is the only thing that has brought be closer to understanding the behavior of the world. It's true, and I reiterate my statement from the previous comment, that I do not CLAIM the validity of rebirth or karma (for it is not within my experience). At the same time, karma (cause and effect) is the only thing that makes most sense to me. What else (barring random selection) may account for different people to be born in different conditions — some to be born in poor family with little or no opportunities to grow, while others in rich countries with all kinds of opportunities to make a good life?


    Re: Baba Ramdev. I’m fully entitled to include him (or Sai Baba, etc.) because people believe such people are closer to God in some way (than, say, a person like me).


    Just because people believe such people are closer to God and so God will fulfill their prayers does not mean it is true. As I said, Baba Ramdev does not consider himself any more gifted than even the lowliest of us. Given this, there is absolutely NO relevance why you should mention him in this post. 



     
  12. Harsh Vora

     
    Re: There is NO scientific evidence of life after death or rebirth. The thing is simply purely imagination.


    A critical thinker does not rule out a possibility simply because there is no scientific evidence available owing to lack of resources and development. Just because there is no scientific backing of rebirth or karma, I am not willing to conclude that there is no such theory of cause and effect. Indeed, that is the only thing that has brought be closer to understanding the behavior of the world. It's true, and I reiterate my statement from the previous comment, that I do not CLAIM the validity of rebirth or karma (for it is not within my experience). At the same time, karma (cause and effect) is the only thing that makes most sense to me. What else (barring random selection) may account for different people to be born in different conditions — some to be born in poor family with little or no opportunities to grow, while others in rich countries with all kinds of opportunities to make a good life?


    Re: Baba Ramdev. I’m fully entitled to include him (or Sai Baba, etc.) because people believe such people are closer to God in some way (than, say, a person like me).


    Just because people believe such people are closer to God and so God will fulfill their prayers does not mean it is true. As I said, Baba Ramdev does not consider himself any more gifted than even the lowliest of us. Given this, there is absolutely NO relevance why you should mention him in this post. 



     
  13. Harsh Vora

    P.S. Earlier, there was option (a checkbox) clicking which I would receive email notifications whenever a new comment is posted after my comment. There is no such option now and it is difficult for commenters to keep track of your (or anyone else's) replies!

     
  14. Harsh Vora

    P.S. Earlier, there was option (a checkbox) clicking which I would receive email notifications whenever a new comment is posted after my comment. There is no such option now and it is difficult for commenters to keep track of your (or anyone else's) replies!

     
  15. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    I’m afraid we can’t believe a thing for which no evidence exists. Once evidence emerges we can consider it. Till then it is best to NOT believe in life after death, rebirth, and all such fertile imaginations of well-meaning philosophers. We must not forget that ONLY truth is relevant. Everything that is untrue must be weeded out. Why start believing in something that is not proven? Sure, such things MAY exist, but when we find proof, we’ll believe. Till then let’s DENY their existence, and admit only what is proven.

    Fair enough. Take Baba Ramdev out. Put anyone else in. Whom would you choose?

     
  16. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    I’m afraid we can’t believe a thing for which no evidence exists. Once evidence emerges we can consider it. Till then it is best to NOT believe in life after death, rebirth, and all such fertile imaginations of well-meaning philosophers. We must not forget that ONLY truth is relevant. Everything that is untrue must be weeded out. Why start believing in something that is not proven? Sure, such things MAY exist, but when we find proof, we’ll believe. Till then let’s DENY their existence, and admit only what is proven.

    Fair enough. Take Baba Ramdev out. Put anyone else in. Whom would you choose?

     
  17. Harsh Vora

    Yes, you are right in that we should not believe that which is not within our experience. And that's why I don't make conclusions on such issues. I do, however, gather assumptions to help my search. In my entire lifetime, science will not develop far enough to find an answer to our metaphysical questions. Given this, and limited time we have, I would rather experiment on what the "enlightened" people, for example, Buddha or Sri Sri Ravishankar or others, claim to know — an achievable state which brings an end to all suffering.  I would not blindly believe, but experiment on their claims until I am dead sure that all is only hoax and that these people are/were not enlightened. 
     
    In such issues, until we know the truth, we should maintain a neutral stance — between belief and disbelief. By neutral, I mean we should neither believe nor disbelieve. Taking a strong, conclusive stance in matters yet undiscovered only leads to illusion. Imagine if Columbus did not believe that there was any such place as India (his disbelief would have put him in fatal illusion). Imagine, on the other extreme, if people in ancient times blindly believed that there was indeed a lake of immortality hidden somewhere on earth (their belief, in this case, would have been a fatal illusion). Let's be honest and dare to say, "I don't know." Then only will we stand a chance to discover the truth. Not otherwise.
     
    Back to your question, I would choose the surgeon (even if he eats beef). As I told in a private message to you, it would be sheer foolishness to accuse the person when the real culprit is the evil within him. I understand that I may have been born as a meat-eater too and, in that case, I would have been in his shoes. Wisdom is in hating the sin, not the sinner. After all, it's also a matter of my life. :) 
     

     
  18. Harsh Vora

    Yes, you are right in that we should not believe that which is not within our experience. And that's why I don't make conclusions on such issues. I do, however, gather assumptions to help my search. In my entire lifetime, science will not develop far enough to find an answer to our metaphysical questions. Given this, and limited time we have, I would rather experiment on what the "enlightened" people, for example, Buddha or Sri Sri Ravishankar or others, claim to know — an achievable state which brings an end to all suffering.  I would not blindly believe, but experiment on their claims until I am dead sure that all is only hoax and that these people are/were not enlightened. 
     
    In such issues, until we know the truth, we should maintain a neutral stance — between belief and disbelief. By neutral, I mean we should neither believe nor disbelieve. Taking a strong, conclusive stance in matters yet undiscovered only leads to illusion. Imagine if Columbus did not believe that there was any such place as India (his disbelief would have put him in fatal illusion). Imagine, on the other extreme, if people in ancient times blindly believed that there was indeed a lake of immortality hidden somewhere on earth (their belief, in this case, would have been a fatal illusion). Let's be honest and dare to say, "I don't know." Then only will we stand a chance to discover the truth. Not otherwise.
     
    Back to your question, I would choose the surgeon (even if he eats beef). As I told in a private message to you, it would be sheer foolishness to accuse the person when the real culprit is the evil within him. I understand that I may have been born as a meat-eater too and, in that case, I would have been in his shoes. Wisdom is in hating the sin, not the sinner. After all, it's also a matter of my life. :) 
     

     
  19. Tenzin gogoi

    It is only because of hinduism that institution of marriage is still intact in India otherwise like Britain and other muslim countries what is difference b/w humans and animals?Living relationships are good in beginning but eventually have dread consequences. First on the physical health of women then when people reach old age no-one to talk and take care of them imagine how horrible it is to live alone.I know now also people with children stay alone but that is rare also it is because they not brought up them with love and care it's proven now.
    what is past life regression do you know?I have got mine done and info of a person I got was 100%correct  in last life in won't dicuss more.
    Do you Nasa has claimed that ther used to be a stone link b/w India and lanka 10lakh years ago now underwater.

     
  20. Tenzin gogoi

    It is only because of hinduism that institution of marriage is still intact in India otherwise like Britain and other muslim countries what is difference b/w humans and animals?Living relationships are good in beginning but eventually have dread consequences. First on the physical health of women then when people reach old age no-one to talk and take care of them imagine how horrible it is to live alone.I know now also people with children stay alone but that is rare also it is because they not brought up them with love and care it's proven now.
    what is past life regression do you know?I have got mine done and info of a person I got was 100%correct  in last life in won't dicuss more.
    Do you Nasa has claimed that ther used to be a stone link b/w India and lanka 10lakh years ago now underwater.

     
  21. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    There is NO “enlightened” person. None who knows ever 1 billionth of what is known, leave alone what will be known in the future. We are characterised by ignorance, not knowledge.

    The concept of enlightenment is a myth, often reflecting a state of delusion wherein we think we know something for sure but have no proof to offer.

    I have not heard anyone say that Einstein was enlightened, even though he know 100s of times more than the Buddha did. Why? Because we imagine that knowledge of the REAL world is trivial, and not worth emulating. We imagine that “knowledge” of the UNKNOWN is somehow more valuable! That is incorrect.

    Should I suddenly declare that I’ve had a dream and God just spoke with me, and start blurting out some “laws” for society, I know that more people will listen to me than they do today! However, I have no intention of either deluding others or myself.

    I see simply NO possibility of an afterlife. I am comfortable broadly with the advaita worldview (and I mean broadly, not literally), for clearly all the world is made out of energy. But I see simply no logic that will permit anything as minor (on the scale of the universe) as human life to exist outside this universe.

    Today, science not only knows the bounds of the universe, but has detected evidence of previous universes – and there is ongoing study which would tell us more and more about the eternal cycles of the universe. But there is simply no place for non-real things. Everything has a base in ‘energy’, and that means life ceases upon death.

    The whole theory of Karma is a nice piece of imagination. No system of justice outside this life exists. That is why I want accountability in this life, not in the next!

    My point is: I’ve not only NOT seen any evidence of any extra-normal thing in my life, but scientists have tested it and found it simply doesn’t exist. 50 years ago I might have said “we don’t know”. Today, I can say: this hypothesis is false.

    If you wish, you can accord a 0.0001% probability to this hypothesis. That means you don’t run your life on the basis of these outdated myths, but on the basis of empirical knowledge. That means NO ONE is ‘enlightened’ and hence everyone is to be questioned.

    Indeed, your action of choosing a doctor, not a priest, clearly shows even you DON’T BELIEVE in prayer’s efficacy, anyway! If prayers were powerful enough you’d not go to an atheist, beef-eating doctor. Neither would I.

    I’m not a fool, either. If I know that God exists for sure, and that praying to Him works, why’d I waste time and money on doctors? So much cheaper to pray.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  22. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    There is NO “enlightened” person. None who knows ever 1 billionth of what is known, leave alone what will be known in the future. We are characterised by ignorance, not knowledge.

    The concept of enlightenment is a myth, often reflecting a state of delusion wherein we think we know something for sure but have no proof to offer.

    I have not heard anyone say that Einstein was enlightened, even though he know 100s of times more than the Buddha did. Why? Because we imagine that knowledge of the REAL world is trivial, and not worth emulating. We imagine that “knowledge” of the UNKNOWN is somehow more valuable! That is incorrect.

    Should I suddenly declare that I’ve had a dream and God just spoke with me, and start blurting out some “laws” for society, I know that more people will listen to me than they do today! However, I have no intention of either deluding others or myself.

    I see simply NO possibility of an afterlife. I am comfortable broadly with the advaita worldview (and I mean broadly, not literally), for clearly all the world is made out of energy. But I see simply no logic that will permit anything as minor (on the scale of the universe) as human life to exist outside this universe.

    Today, science not only knows the bounds of the universe, but has detected evidence of previous universes – and there is ongoing study which would tell us more and more about the eternal cycles of the universe. But there is simply no place for non-real things. Everything has a base in ‘energy’, and that means life ceases upon death.

    The whole theory of Karma is a nice piece of imagination. No system of justice outside this life exists. That is why I want accountability in this life, not in the next!

    My point is: I’ve not only NOT seen any evidence of any extra-normal thing in my life, but scientists have tested it and found it simply doesn’t exist. 50 years ago I might have said “we don’t know”. Today, I can say: this hypothesis is false.

    If you wish, you can accord a 0.0001% probability to this hypothesis. That means you don’t run your life on the basis of these outdated myths, but on the basis of empirical knowledge. That means NO ONE is ‘enlightened’ and hence everyone is to be questioned.

    Indeed, your action of choosing a doctor, not a priest, clearly shows even you DON’T BELIEVE in prayer’s efficacy, anyway! If prayers were powerful enough you’d not go to an atheist, beef-eating doctor. Neither would I.

    I’m not a fool, either. If I know that God exists for sure, and that praying to Him works, why’d I waste time and money on doctors? So much cheaper to pray.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  23. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dr Gogoi, what’s your specialisation? I ask because you sound very gullible when you say, “what is past life regression do you know?I have got mine done and info of a person I got was 100%correct in last life in won’t dicuss more.”

    Do you know the level of rigour of proof required of science? Randi offered $1 million to ANYONE who could prove even remotely the existence of any extra-normal phenomenon. Hundreds tried. No one could even remotely prove the matter.

    You’ve been taken for a big ride! That much is sure.

    Re: “stone link” – how does that enter this discussion? It is a natural collection of rocks due to the movement of the sea. The most obvious natural phenomenon one can think of. What’s the big deal about it?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  24. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dr Gogoi, what’s your specialisation? I ask because you sound very gullible when you say, “what is past life regression do you know?I have got mine done and info of a person I got was 100%correct in last life in won’t dicuss more.”

    Do you know the level of rigour of proof required of science? Randi offered $1 million to ANYONE who could prove even remotely the existence of any extra-normal phenomenon. Hundreds tried. No one could even remotely prove the matter.

    You’ve been taken for a big ride! That much is sure.

    Re: “stone link” – how does that enter this discussion? It is a natural collection of rocks due to the movement of the sea. The most obvious natural phenomenon one can think of. What’s the big deal about it?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  25. nidhi

    Hello Sanjeev,
     
    well i read many of your blogs and came to one conclusion that you seem to baised against Ramdev.
    Your reference to Ramdev in post makes it more evident. i have never heard him saying or proving with his public  lectures claiming himself  to be somebody enlightened or near to GOD . If you give same situation to Ramdev he himself with suggest you the last.  He has never claimed that modern medical sceince is useless .  
    I will request you to avoid such post as it doing any good to your cause rather it would be better if you direct your energy  of critical thinking in analysing his five demands from goverment and their feasibilty. i will be keen  to read that.
    Thanks
    Nidhi
     

     
  26. nidhi

    Hello Sanjeev,
     
    well i read many of your blogs and came to one conclusion that you seem to baised against Ramdev.
    Your reference to Ramdev in post makes it more evident. i have never heard him saying or proving with his public  lectures claiming himself  to be somebody enlightened or near to GOD . If you give same situation to Ramdev he himself with suggest you the last.  He has never claimed that modern medical sceince is useless .  
    I will request you to avoid such post as it doing any good to your cause rather it would be better if you direct your energy  of critical thinking in analysing his five demands from goverment and their feasibilty. i will be keen  to read that.
    Thanks
    Nidhi
     

     
  27. Harsh Vora

    Sanjeev — You cannot compare an expert of the outside world with a knower of the inside. To say that Buddha did not know even 1/100th of what Einstein did is purely delusional and one-sided mentality. Buddha mastered spiritual and Einstein mastered material.  Just because you or I have not experienced something (enlightenment!) DOES NOT rule out the possibility that it exists. It is possible that there is a state beyond our own mind. I do not claim. I just say that there is a possibility. That's my view. Just because no one has yet turned up to claim Randi's $1 MM does not translate to the impossibility of miracles. This is not a scientific evidence. If you believe otherwise, then you rule out a potential possibility.
     
    Yoga sutras point to eight different types of paranormal abilities a practitioner can achieve if he/she practices it with rigor. And India has seen many such yogis (yes, the ratio of true yogis and fake ones may be 1/100). Vivekananda himself claimed the existence of paranormal powers (even if they were conceived by the powers of our own mind!). Given the sheer claim of hundreds of people regarding the existence of karma, paranormal abilities, etc., I am not unwise enough to outrightly dismiss the possibility of their validity. Yes, don't follow these people and blindly believe them if what they claim is not within your own experience. But don't rule out the possibility either.  Let's keep an open yet critical mind. 
     
    P.S Your blog now has the follow-up feature I was talking about. 

     
  28. Harsh Vora

    Sanjeev — You cannot compare an expert of the outside world with a knower of the inside. To say that Buddha did not know even 1/100th of what Einstein did is purely delusional and one-sided mentality. Buddha mastered spiritual and Einstein mastered material.  Just because you or I have not experienced something (enlightenment!) DOES NOT rule out the possibility that it exists. It is possible that there is a state beyond our own mind. I do not claim. I just say that there is a possibility. That's my view. Just because no one has yet turned up to claim Randi's $1 MM does not translate to the impossibility of miracles. This is not a scientific evidence. If you believe otherwise, then you rule out a potential possibility.
     
    Yoga sutras point to eight different types of paranormal abilities a practitioner can achieve if he/she practices it with rigor. And India has seen many such yogis (yes, the ratio of true yogis and fake ones may be 1/100). Vivekananda himself claimed the existence of paranormal powers (even if they were conceived by the powers of our own mind!). Given the sheer claim of hundreds of people regarding the existence of karma, paranormal abilities, etc., I am not unwise enough to outrightly dismiss the possibility of their validity. Yes, don't follow these people and blindly believe them if what they claim is not within your own experience. But don't rule out the possibility either.  Let's keep an open yet critical mind. 
     
    P.S Your blog now has the follow-up feature I was talking about. 

     
  29. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    There are one of two ways to start proving something:

    a) Like Einstein, come up with a theory first, and others will prove it for you.
    b) Like Darwin, come up with proof first, and then make a theory.

    So far I can guarantee that there is no scientific evidence of any extra-normal existence. Millions of claims but zero proof. So (b) is ruled out.

    And there is simply no testable theory that is consistent with such existence, either. Therefore (a) does not exist, which means the possibility of testing and proving this point.

    There could well be that:

    (c) a) or b) of parapsychology would be proven in the future. However, so far, after nearly 50 years of effort, science has failed to come up with any genuine scientific evidence that is replicable.

    The standards of science (being the standards of the Truth) are very high and the kind of claims commonly made (including by many ‘scientists’) are found to be fraudulent or non-replicable.

    I’d like to see ONE peer-reviewed study in any top tier science journal on this subject. That doesn’t prove anything, but it would at least be a start.

    All other claims including by the media are sheer nonsense. Delusion. Imagination.

    You may well be willing to be fooled. I’m not. My standards are much higher.

    When I go to a magic show I’m fooled all the time! That is why I know how easy it is to fool people. Fraudsters do that ALL the time. Millions are fooled by ‘godmen’ in India who pull out ‘vibhuti’ and ‘gold eggs’ and watches. Even “scientists”. That is why I don’t believe even ‘scientists’. I need peer reviewed publications, and not just one, but 10 times replicated and proven. Then something becomes the Truth. The rest is fraud.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  30. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    There are one of two ways to start proving something:

    a) Like Einstein, come up with a theory first, and others will prove it for you.
    b) Like Darwin, come up with proof first, and then make a theory.

    So far I can guarantee that there is no scientific evidence of any extra-normal existence. Millions of claims but zero proof. So (b) is ruled out.

    And there is simply no testable theory that is consistent with such existence, either. Therefore (a) does not exist, which means the possibility of testing and proving this point.

    There could well be that:

    (c) a) or b) of parapsychology would be proven in the future. However, so far, after nearly 50 years of effort, science has failed to come up with any genuine scientific evidence that is replicable.

    The standards of science (being the standards of the Truth) are very high and the kind of claims commonly made (including by many ‘scientists’) are found to be fraudulent or non-replicable.

    I’d like to see ONE peer-reviewed study in any top tier science journal on this subject. That doesn’t prove anything, but it would at least be a start.

    All other claims including by the media are sheer nonsense. Delusion. Imagination.

    You may well be willing to be fooled. I’m not. My standards are much higher.

    When I go to a magic show I’m fooled all the time! That is why I know how easy it is to fool people. Fraudsters do that ALL the time. Millions are fooled by ‘godmen’ in India who pull out ‘vibhuti’ and ‘gold eggs’ and watches. Even “scientists”. That is why I don’t believe even ‘scientists’. I need peer reviewed publications, and not just one, but 10 times replicated and proven. Then something becomes the Truth. The rest is fraud.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  31. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Nidhi

    I admire Ram Dev in things he is good at: physical yoga, even ayurveda. No probs with that. But he derives his political worldview from outdated ‘Vedic’ socialist ideas, whatever these be.

    He doesn’t know that the rules of the game have changed. Governance is now based on a much deeper analysis of human incentives. The standards of truth are much higher. Everything is different. So in areas where he comments on public policy he is almost invariably wrong.

    Re: this particular one, I put his name in the ‘quiz’ because many people (not you, obviously) are so enamoured of him that they seem to believe he is an outstanding representative of India’s ancient culture of rishis munnies and therefore presumably has a direct link to God. Anyway, this was also a test of the strength of ayurveda vs. the power of science.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  32. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Nidhi

    I admire Ram Dev in things he is good at: physical yoga, even ayurveda. No probs with that. But he derives his political worldview from outdated ‘Vedic’ socialist ideas, whatever these be.

    He doesn’t know that the rules of the game have changed. Governance is now based on a much deeper analysis of human incentives. The standards of truth are much higher. Everything is different. So in areas where he comments on public policy he is almost invariably wrong.

    Re: this particular one, I put his name in the ‘quiz’ because many people (not you, obviously) are so enamoured of him that they seem to believe he is an outstanding representative of India’s ancient culture of rishis munnies and therefore presumably has a direct link to God. Anyway, this was also a test of the strength of ayurveda vs. the power of science.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  33. nidhi

    Hello  Sanjeev, 
    Well first let me correct  when you say he is  just good at physical yoga (physical exercises )and  ayurveda .He has taken things to very higher level now. No Body can deny it .he is hero of common man . What he can acheive is yet to seen in comming years.  My only  problem was when you are putting him with sai baba. That is completely outrageous. You were also not true when you said it was a test of ayurveda vs modern medical sceince. You Could  have just said  ayurveda. It was more of a mockery then any thing else. 
    One last thing about cow slaughter  he may have gone too far i agree but 90% of his thoughts and views are for masses. At least as a common man i did not know so many facts about economy of my country  and just look at the indian media, they are just sold out souls.
    Also I would encourage you to see just FYI
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=meet+your+meat&aq=f
     
    Thanks
    Nidhi

     
  34. nidhi

    Hello  Sanjeev, 
    Well first let me correct  when you say he is  just good at physical yoga (physical exercises )and  ayurveda .He has taken things to very higher level now. No Body can deny it .he is hero of common man . What he can acheive is yet to seen in comming years.  My only  problem was when you are putting him with sai baba. That is completely outrageous. You were also not true when you said it was a test of ayurveda vs modern medical sceince. You Could  have just said  ayurveda. It was more of a mockery then any thing else. 
    One last thing about cow slaughter  he may have gone too far i agree but 90% of his thoughts and views are for masses. At least as a common man i did not know so many facts about economy of my country  and just look at the indian media, they are just sold out souls.
    Also I would encourage you to see just FYI
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=meet+your+meat&aq=f
     
    Thanks
    Nidhi

     
  35. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Fair enough, Nidhi

    I agree he is a hero to the common people. I don’t have ANY heroes (I believe everyone has flaws) so he is not my hero. But I admire him in many ways, and have a soft corner for his valiant attempt to defeat corruption in India through the political channel.

    I do know for sure, however, that none of his articulations or those of his main leaders, demonstrate a clear understanding of the kind of change that is needed to achieve the goals he has for India. I also don’t agree on all the goals – particularly where he imposes “Hindu” views on the entire country.

    In the end, we need not just good people like him, but people who understand the both economics and public administration very deeply. That is what FTI proposes to offer India – the whole package.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  36. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Fair enough, Nidhi

    I agree he is a hero to the common people. I don’t have ANY heroes (I believe everyone has flaws) so he is not my hero. But I admire him in many ways, and have a soft corner for his valiant attempt to defeat corruption in India through the political channel.

    I do know for sure, however, that none of his articulations or those of his main leaders, demonstrate a clear understanding of the kind of change that is needed to achieve the goals he has for India. I also don’t agree on all the goals – particularly where he imposes “Hindu” views on the entire country.

    In the end, we need not just good people like him, but people who understand the both economics and public administration very deeply. That is what FTI proposes to offer India – the whole package.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  37. Murthy

    Sanjeev,
    I had bought a over the counter anti allergic ( for  skin) externally applied medicine from one of the patanjali medical shops. one of the ingredient of that medicine was cow  urine. I know it only after I bought it. It works well. I saw many people buying medicines with cow urine etc. People do not just buy them if the medicines  do not provide relief.

     
  38. Murthy

    Please go through the infrastructure of the patanjali herbal & Food park. It is better than what govt of India provides for farmers or agri based industries.
    http://pfhpl.com/index-eng.html
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/Ramdev-joins-hand-with-foreign-firm-for-food-business/Article1-714022.aspx
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h6XtFDZjmM&feature=related
    The new facility opened for juice packing with tetra pack is of clean room of class 1000.
    Baba Ramdev  says do not buy MNC products where zero technology is used. like cosmetics, soaps etc because Money goes out of the country.
    below is the list of facilities at patanjali yogpeeth, haridwar
    http://www.divyayoga.com/medical-facility-in-patanjali-yogpeeth/medical-facilities-in-patanjali-yogpeeth-i.html
    Around 1500 patanjali hospitals are spread all over India. you can get the list  from the website.
    One needs to stand in a queue to buy medicines at patanjali medical shops. if they are not effective people does not buy them.

     
  39. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Murthy

    I'm not denying that some Ayurvedic medicine works. Indeed, it is impossible that thousands of "experiments" conducted over thousands of years would have led to something in which nothing works. 

    "Modern" medicine has NO answer to 90% or more of human ailments, particularly chronic ones. On most of these things, ancient remedies like yoga/ayurveda often do equally well or better. 

    But note that there is a very strong placebo effect at work in life (http://sabhlokcity.com/tag/placebo-effect/), and so little is known about most diseases and their cure, so we can't, yet, conclusively say what works in which case. That cow urine might contain certain chemicals that have healing properties is quite likely. Morarji Desai is famous for drinking his own urine. That, too, might have some chemicals which have healing properties.

    Research is always welcome, but the question is the quality of research. Most medical research is BOGUS. Few people understand causality, and even fewer understand how to establish rigorous experiments. I trust Patanjali institutions know this, else 99% of their results will be bogus.

    They need to publish results in international medical journals, not in flimsy paper booklets that can dupe the ignorant but not the knowledgeable.

    My question on this blog post relates not to chronic disease but to surgical treatment and emergency care. On that I suspect no one will pick Ramdev's treatments.

    He himself had no choice but to go to "standard" doctors when he was becoming ill as a result of his fast. He could not cure himself.

    S

     
  40. Murthy

    i heard Baba Ramdev  saying many times that allopathy is the best for emergency &  diagnosis.
    I would like to convey that he is never against technology nor science.