Thoughts on economics and liberty

Now I’m concerned! Baba Ramdev’s ideas must change.

Over the past few weeks I've steadily become more aware of Baba Ramdev's work. His avid fans write to me, asking me to watch this video or that.

I don't have time to watch videos, but did watch one – where Rajiv Dixit and Baba Ramdev spoke – and found it amazing in terms of the ignorance about world history displayed by Dixit, and his praise for Mao Tse Tung and other communists! I haven't watched more videos but I do hope that Mr Dixit is not advocating communism!

Next I discovered that Baba Ramdev wants to ban cow slaughter. I found it to be a misguided viewpoint and tantamount to religious interference in the affairs of the state.

Following a link sent to me today by one of his fans I came across http://bharat-swabhiman.com/en/about/ (do  read this page).

Now I'm beginning to become concerned! I'm not yet alarmed but concerned that Baba Ramdev might be biting off more than he can chew. It is not necessary for an outstanding yogi to also be an outstanding engineer. So also Baba Ramdev is excellent in yoga but  VERY weak in policy. He also has no one within his group that can advise him on policy.

Take two examples:

1) 100% boycott of foreign companies, adoption of ‘swadeshi’

This a seriously misguided. If swadeshi means what it should mean in Hindi, then the website of Baba Ramdev should be shut down, for NONE of it was invented in India. Everything underpinning the website including electricity, the transistors, the integrated chips, the internet infrastructure, the software was developed OUTSIDE India. The atomic theory, the entire physics behind it, was developed outside India. 

If he is serious about swadeshi, Baba will also need to ensure that all Indians shut off their electricity and stop using bicycles, cars, buses, trains, and planes. And he should immediately stop using his mobile phone. And so on… 

Is the Baba aware of how badly misguided this policy is! He needs to read about how wealth is created. He can start with Adam Smith, or at least chapters 2 and 3 of BFN.

2) We will adopt nationalist thought 100%, and while in our personal lives we observe Hindu, Islam, Christian, Sikh, Buddhist, Jain, etc. religious traditions, in our public lives we will live like a true Bharatiya.

I have no objection in principle with this but this statement is DEEPLY contradicted by the Baba's other statements. What is a Bharatiya? To find an answer to this question we can seek guidance from two other statements: (a) 100% yoga-oriented nation; and (b) ban on cow slaughter (i.e. no one to eat beef).

With re: to (a) I'm a great fan of yoga since it helped me immensely as part my cure of RSI (see my RSI cure website here). I attend at least one yoga class each week even now (apart from a Pilates class, and many other things I do at the gym/pool). But what if someone doesn't want to practice yoga? Is that person not Bharatiya? Isn't such an objective by a political front a blatant encroachment of religious views on the affairs of society?

Second, (b) – i.e. ban on cow slaughter – contradicts the religious freedom of Muslims and Christians (and many Hindus as well) to eat beef. How can people live their personal life as Muslims or Christians but be forbidden by the state to eat beef?

Note that statement (2) is good in principle, but because Baba Ramdev is not an advocate of freedom, he is mixing up good things with bad. Yes, people must not, as statement (2) states, mix their religion in the affairs of the nation. But therefore also, Baba Ramdev can't ask people to take up yoga or forbid their eating beef if they want to – just because he is a Hindu. What if Baba Ramdev was born a Muslim? Would he then say such things? How can our policy positions be based on the beliefs of the family to which we were born?

He is advocating religious interference in the affairs of state, and he doesn't understand policy. India can never become a free nation or a successful nation with such policies.

Tentative conclusion

Nothing from what I have read, watched (on video) or understood about Baba Ramdev so far convinces me that he is capable of delivering even remotely on his fundamental promise of honest good governance. He will fail since he doesn't understand policy and doesn't understand the causes of India's corruption and misgovernance. His team, e.g. people like Dixit do not seem capable of achieving anything either (from what I have gathered so far, given that they also presumably agree to such policies).

PREDICTIONS

True, Baba Ramdev is very popular, and he WILL influence Indian politics. But the results won't be what his followers want. From what he seems to be advocating I can now safely predict the following:

a) His party will take half of BJP's vote but barely a singleCongress vote. Both BJP and his party will fare badly in the elections as a result, making it VERY EASY for Congress to win.

b) Even if his party and BJP undertake seat adjustments, and manage to win a majority together and form a coalition, the coalition will fail to provide good governance because neither BJP nor his party understand policy

In either scenario, India is doomed to further misgovernance. Congress – the totally corrupt socialist organisation will rule, or BJP/Baba Ramdev coalition will rule – which is totally confused about policy.

Solution: The solution for India is very simple. We need a clearly liberal group that understands how to govern and create excellent outcomes for all Indians. That group is FTI. Its policies will ENSURE the abolition of corruption and illiteracy, among other things. No one else can provide Indians what they desperately want: peace, good education, honest governance, health, and wealth. NO OTHER GROUP IN INDIA CAN ENSURE THAT. ZERO CHANCE. IMPOSSIBLE! Sawaal hi paida nahin hota.

Unless – of course, Baba Ramdev's ideas change, and he takes a crash course on policy. He can take a crash course in policy by reading BFN. That should be the first book on policy for anyone who wants to reform India. Just like people need to read a book by an expert physicist in order to understand gravity, so also they can start with BFN to understand policy. I can take yoga classes from him. He can take policy classes from me. Let the best that India can offer be made available to the people of India. Let us not get our Policy from a Yogi, nor Yoga from me!

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122 thoughts on “Now I’m concerned! Baba Ramdev’s ideas must change.
  1. Harsh Vora

    Sanjeev — Please know that when Swamiji talks about swadeshi, he intends to refer to the goods that are 'Made in India', and not made elsewhere. He asks that if we use cars, then they should be those that are manufactured in Indian companies — such as TATA or Mahindra. If we use pillows or bedsheets, they should be "Made in India." He does not necessarily refer to those goods invented in India, although that would also be much preferable. Remember when I quoted from Yog Sandesh that he strongly wants the latest technology for his people in India, and that is one of his chief goals after Bharat Swabhiman comes to power? So, it's important that we don't take his words out of context. 
     
    Lastly, let me provide you a link to an article from the Harvard Business Review: http://blogs.hbr.org/tjan/2010/08/the-power-of-ignorance.html
     
    To quote from it specifically, please read this:
    "A large part of successful execution is rational prioritization and careful planning. But the spirit of excellence in execution gets its energy from conviction. Rallying people behind the idea requires a resolute belief in one's vision. This conviction is obviously easier when you don't know the thousands of ways an idea could crash and burn. You don't lose sleep over something of which you are unaware. Ignorance promotes a fearless conviction that inspires and motivates the team members who are driving execution. Entrepreneurs know that they go into situations with the statistical odds stacked against them, but rationality is overwhelmed by conviction in the possibility of succeeding. Conviction is highly infectious, and people who catch it can and will execute with a greater intensity and sense of purpose in their roles."
     
    Swami Ramdev may not know the hundred ways he can fail, but as the HBR article above says, his conviction will help inspire and influence people to act. It is possible that he knows that 100% swadeshi, or purna-swadeshi (as Gandhi called it), is impossible to bring in India, due to influence of so many counter-cultures. However, his conviction will help bring at least a fraction of it. Rest, the policy-makers will play their role in assisting him (hopefully, people like you, if you change your views!)
     
    Regarding banning cow-slaughter, I have already discussed about this with you. It's a different thing that you (and FTI) do not wish to accept this broad definition of freedom. Let me write here for the readers: "True freedom is when ALL creatures are provided the right to live." If freedom is only restricted to humans, then such freedom is called "restricted freedom," not COMPLETE freedom. This definition, of course, excludes criminals (and terrorists). In case of self-defense, such as when thieves threaten our life, or in case of dire emergencies, like during famine, killing of some creatures can be justified. Banning of cow-slaughter should be banned because cow is one of the many victims who are killed for self-pleasure. And we, as Indians, definitely cannot carry the burden of such violence on our heads, specifically since we have always stood as examples for the world to follow (in terms of tolerance and non-violence). Please don't inject religious debate into this. When we say that animal-killing should be refrained from, that involves pig as well — note that the Muslims are disallowed by their scriptures from eating pig. In that case, their freedom will be protected, won't it be?
     
    Certain animals do deserve special treatment — just like, we, as humans, provide special importance to people who have high positions in the society. For example, a PM is usually given super-security given his contributions to the nation (it's a different matter that, unfortunately, politicians' corruption outweighs their contribution to the nation). A cow has been, and still is, more important than any other animal to Indians. I have already mentioned her benefits to us. Hence, she should be given the right to live, with a bias.
     
    Again, PLEASE DON'T inject religious issue here, although there is religious sentiment involved. It's a duty of EVERY religion to respect OTHER religion's sentiments (that is real tolerance, isn't it?). Hindus should be okay if pig-slaughter is banned. So also, Muslims, in general (by their own reason and inherent goodness, AND NOT by force), will respect our sentiments by allowing us to ban cow-slaughter.
     

     
  2. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Harsh

    1) You suggest when " Swamiji talks about swadeshi, he intends to refer to the goods that are 'Made in India', and not made elsewhere". 

    Can you please explain why anyone will offer their technology freely to India? If someone invents a bulb, they will sell to India, or sell India the IP to produce it. Why will they give away the technology for free? The other way is to steal IP. That's called piracy, also theft. I'm sure that's not what Baba Ramdev is advocating. So the problem is HOW can India manufacture ANYTHING if India has not produced virtually ANY technology indigenously because of its deplorable socialist education system? ALL high level science books are imported. ALL nuclear and space equipment was imported from abroad.  Even electric generators were imported. EVERYTHING. All medical, computer, engineering technology: IMPORTED.

    Imagine the computer chip that underpins the internet. NONE of them are produced in India. So what is the Baba saying? That India should de-computerise till it can invent a computer chip?

    You say Tata should produce domestically. But TATA did not invent the engine. it copied for a hundred years by importing from Mercedes. Only after 100 years could it learn to make it own engine. Now it can produce so well that it can sell abroad. But what would happen if other countries apply the Baba's idea of swadeshi, so they won't buy TATA's car!

    Swadeshi is a very very bad idea. It is called mercantalism and in 1776 Adam Smith showed how dangerous the idea was. It is the MOST DANGEROUS idea for any economy. It can and WILL bring any country down to its knees. It is EXACTLY through swadeshi that Nehru and Indira destroyed India. Read BFN. Look at North Korea.

    This idea is also ANTI-FREEDOM. If an Indian wants to buy goods from abroad, for it increases his/her productivity, that is GOOD for India.  If you use the internet, it increases your productivity.  There is the law of comparative advantage that is applicable. Let people choose whatever they wish to do. Their choices to import/export must be respected (including to drink Coca Cola).

    2) Re: interference of religion with the state, I have written at length elsewhere and wont' repeat. Imposing one's religious views on others is wrong. Please let's learn to respect others' views and differences. 

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  3. Harsh Vora

    Sanjeev — The reason we use chips, processors, etc. all imported from "developed" countries is that our ruling government has never encouraged enough research and development. Our scientists, doctors etc. HAVE the ability to invent or make any products, just like Japan, China, America or Europe, maybe even better than these countries. Notice that when we were purna swadeshi before the moghuls and Britishers reigned in, we were one of the most scientific countries in the world.
     
    So, once Bharat Swabhiman comes to power, it will encourage R&D to the point that we will have computers in Hindi language, no English. We will all technology in Hindi only. Look at Japan and China. Let us not follow them in terms of their political philosophy, but let us at least learn swadeshi from them. Swami Ramdev's vision of swadeshi will not come in a year or two. It will take many, many years. This is a gradual process, but eventually will culminate in a high-technology level that Japan is in, or even higher than that. Then, we will even have our own nuclear and space equipment, for sure! Today, India is what it is ONLY because moghuls and the Britishes have raped her. We should look to the past, so that we don't make the same mistakes that our ancestors (kings) made. If Chanakya could create a golden India by looking up at India's past, we too can learn from him and re-create a golden India again!
     
    Note, Swami Ramdev is not as against trade, as he is against establishing MNCs in India. Trade definitely has its benefits. And Swami Ramdev knows it. But, not for now at least. The need of the moment is swadeshi. Maybe, once India is re-created, trade will be beneficial.

     
  4. chaitanya

    My wish is that Baba Ramdev focuses on ONE message throughout his first campaign. That is, Truth. He should start a new Satyagraha of sorts. Being a Yogi, this is his domain and expertise. Just imagine how India will be transformed with Truth. (Because it automatically means end of corruption). I think even if a single policy doesn't change, just end corruption in India, and India will soar ! Truth is a very generic message, so it will build a strong base for him across various sections of society.
     
    I think this is a better strategy than spreading the message thin with various issues like cow slaughter, hindi vs english, swadeshi etc etc.  Stay focused. Stay with a single message. If the message is too broad and confusing, there will be too much discussion on peripheral issues, and Baba Ramdev's movement may lose momentum.
     

     
  5. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    @Harsh:

    Re: "The reason we use chips, processors, etc. all imported from "developed" countries is that our ruling government has never encouraged enough research and development."

    Dear Harsh, virtually NONE of the major inventions in the world were funded by governments. These were PRIVATE enterprises. And to see why a government should NEVER fund R&D please read the extensive evidence and logic provided in the book "Sex, Science and Profits" by Terence Kealey which I have reviewed here (http://sabhlokcity.com/2009/06/304/).

    You are wrong about Indian government  investment in R&D. It has thrown HUGE amounts of money into R&D which has been almost entirely wasted. Whatever good is coming out of India is through private efforts such as TATA's. That is called learning by doing. Also ALL major things produced in India now are in the private sector, that is why we are able to get at least some things in India. 

    Re: "Look at Japan and China. Let us not follow them in terms of their political philosophy, but let us at least learn swadeshi from them. "

    This statement shows some significant weakness of understanding of Japan and China’s history. Japan was NEVER into Swadeshi. Indeed, since its Meiji revolution, its kings have gone OUT OF THE WAY to attract foreign investment and ideas into Japan. The great failures that have occurred in Japan have been motivated by MITI, which has squandered unbelievable amounts of money in bad ideas. All Japanese technology was imported initially, then their own started. Japan was one of the world's most open economies. MNCs are WELCOMED in Japan.

    China's success since 1979 is a very similar story to Japan's. And so on. ALL Asian Tigers too technology (and continue to do so) from wherever it is invented.. 

    Re: "India is what it is ONLY because moghuls and the Britishes have raped her."

    This displays very significant lack if understanding of Indian history as well. India is what it is today because of Nehruvian socialism. Tiny countries, big countries, ALL poorer than India have skyrocked to wealth in the last 60 years while India has remained socialist. Yes, in 1750 India was as rich as any other country in the world. But since then, India's ONLY successes have been in areas where it has allowed free trade.

    Re:  Swami Ramdev is not as against trade, as he is against establishing MNCs in India.

    Please realise that today it is NOT foreign MNCs we must think about, but Indian MNCs. Indian companies need to establish branches all over the world. They will take over the world if we let them. The idea of blocking MNCs is so flawed I won't even go into it. 

    Harsh, you need to read BFN, or a basic book in economics. Baba Ramdev too. Please learn how wealth is created. 

    And now, let me pause. I'm done. No more repetitive discussion from me on this policy of Baba Ramdev. Let me spend time writing my books. If people want to really improve India, then please learn how wealth is created. That is what I write about. I see all this a result of India's deplorable education system where we don't teach economics to people. India suffers because its youth, its leaders are economic illiterates. (see my post at: http://sabhlokcity.com/2010/03/topsy-turvy-higher-education-system-in-india/ ). I'm trying to bring basic economics literacy to our nation.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     

     
  6. Arvind shah

    Dear Sanjeev,
    I am a new FTI member and not much familiar with its working. I am also retired NRI based in Virginia, USA. Since my retirement I am spending lot of time in Mumbai, India. For last several years I am visiting Mumbai and I am amazed to note that most of the people are very hard working, sincere and honest. It is only the rich people, politicians, businessmen, custom, police and government officers  etc who  are corrupt, dishonest and crooked. I agree with you that Baba Ramdev  policy is not practical. But one big PLUS point he has is LOVE for India and HUGE popularity in India and Abroad. Also he has some valid policy like DEATH penalty for people involve in corruption, rape etc. In spite of corruption etc there is REAL progress in India. I divide INDIA into two category – one private enterprises and other government run enterprises. Whatever progress you see in INDIA  is mainly in private enterprises.  All Government run systems like roads, bridges, highways, power, water and other Infrastructures are lagging behind mainly due to unqualified, old, corrupt government officers, politicians etc.. I think FTI should work with Baba ramdev to bring changes in India.
    Regards,
    Arvind Shah
     

     
  7. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Nice to meet you, Arvind. I haven't heard much from you on the FTI Forum, so I'd encourage you to participate there. We have had a reasonable amount of discussion on Baba Ramdev there.

    I have (I only speak for myself not FTI) still not ruled out the idea of working with people like Baba Ramdev. I am beginning to get concerned, though, that his intentions may be good (like Nehru's were) but his results are going to be disastrous unless he learns about governance policy including economics.

    I think the way it would work would be that Baba Ramdev (and his leaders) would need to join FTI to display his credentials. The key reason he couldn't do that today is because he is not a classical liberal. That is a mandatory requirement before anyone joins FTI. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he is one. And it may be too hard or too late to teach him anything.

    But he is young and intelligent. I offered to explain some fundamental ideas about how India can be reformed to him if he happens to come to Melbourne. That offer remains. In the meanwhile if anyone else can explain basics of economics to him, it might help! 

    Otherwise I expect he will go his own way (because of the mass popularity), and end up harming India (if he gets sufficient votes; which I question now, because of his divisive statements that will put off all Muslims and Christians voters and all business people). He will eat into BJP votes and if he continues in power unchanged in his policies, I am now clearer than ever before that India can expect Congress to win the 2014 elections easily (unless FTI finds sufficient leaders and builds a counter-challenge to Congress, – or good people like Baba Ramdev change policies and align with FTI).

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  8. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    COMMENT ON MY FACEBOOK PAGE

    Baba Ramdev does not deserve so much consideration. Money and power are his goals. People don't take his politics seriously. He was fine till he stuck to Pranayama and not beyond.

    ==MY RESPONSE==

    XX

    I partly agree. The reality is that Baba Ramdev has a mass following that can't be denied. Liberals have no mass following, even though they should. Unfortunately, in the absence of robust leadership from the liberals, all kinds of illiberal ideas get ready hearing in India. My hope is to educate and increase the understanding of liberalism, apart from finding leaders. 

    I do hope you can join FTI and lead. India desperately needs to reform its governance.

    Btw, you'll be amazed at how the number of visits to my blog rise when I talk about Baba Ramdev (I've also received hate mail that I've not published). People are very interested in knowing more about him. As I learn more about Baba Ramdev, people also learn more about liberalism. Exchange of ideas is a two-way street. Both sides learn. Hopefully people in India will understand freedom a little better through my blog and books/articles.

    Ultimately, however, unless people like you join FTI and actually offer to lead India, expect fatal confusion to prevail. 

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  9. Nitin Gulhane

    Dear Nitin, I’ve edited your comment extensively to exclude harsh phrases. Please be respectful even in dissent.- I have a tough comments moderation policy and can (and will) PERMANENTLY block any commentator who uses particularly rough language. Parliamentary and civil, modest language is the standard here. =====

    Aim of politician should be to ensure enough freedom for its citizens. Its seriously dangerous when a political leader wants to 'change' its citizens.

    If somebody wants to follow Yoga and be vegetarian, good for him. If somebody wants to wear loin cloth and use only 'swadeshi' stuff, I congratulate him…but it becomes irritating when somebody wants me to follow their great path.

    While I have nothing against Swadeshi, is there a guarantee that these swadeshi producers will not spend that money abroad? Is baba Ramdev and his desciples guaranteeing that Tata and Mahedra are NOT going to spend the money they earned in foreign countries?
    The world is becoming smaller and all the countries are now closely entangled. You cannot take them apart anymore unless we go back to Medieval systems like North Korea and Afghanistan. If Sensex crashes down in India, it gets reverberated at New York Stock Exchange when the sun rises in the USA. When Microsoft makes a great new product, IT companies in India start looking even better.

    We seriously don't want spiritual education from our leaders. We want very simpel things like better roads, cleaner water and accessible education system. And keep that education system simple …I don't want my kid to worry about Yoga subject in his pre-primary school. 

    Our leaders promise big things without concentrating on smaller but much more essential things.

    Let people find their way towards happyness. Country's responsibility is to just provide physical security and freedom to its citizens. Nothing less and nothing more.

     
  10. Nitin Gulhane

    Arvind shah says: Also he has some valid policy like DEATH penalty for people involve in corruption, rape etc


    Death penalty for rape and corruption? Now that gives me a jitters.
    We are humans and it is impossible to take these crimes out of us anytime soon. The law books that we have are fruit of debates carried out by many intelligent people who have decided punishment for each crime. Asking for death penalty for rape and corruption is a sure sign of stupidity to which a society can stoop to. I suspect that he will propose death penalty for blasphemy too.
    Now don't assume that I am supporting crimes…far from it. However, let the court system decide what punishment suits what crime….let not political leaders poke their nose into the business that they don't understand.

     
  11. Arvind shah

    Thank you Sanjeev.  You suggested that Baba Ramdev (and his leaders) would need to join FTI to display his credentials. It is not the Baba Ramdev to show his credentials and join FTI. It should be other way. FTI has to take initiative and send their representative to join Baba Ramdev's political party "Bharat Swabhiman Party". Baba Ramdev has more credential than FTI. Entire world knows Babaji. Who knows FTI? I am not trying to be rude but that is the fact. I have seen myself how everyday he goes village to village in India and builds up mass follower. Do you know he is going  to field his party candidate in each and every village, taluka, city etc.

    I am also sorry to read someone commented "Baba Ramdev does not deserve so much consideration. Money and power are his goals". In my opinion in present India he is the ONLY HONEST AND NATIONALIST person capable to bring REAL change. Only problem is he and his leaders are not educated and do not understand management etc. That is why I thought FTI should join his party and guide them in organization, management etc.

    Also Nitin Gulhani says let the court system decide what punishment suits what crime. Dear Nitin Indian Judiciary system in India is so outdated and corrupt that they cannot solve any crime. Only harsh penalty like DEATH will teach the lesson to stop our biggest problem – corruption in each and every sector of the society.


    Regards,
    Arvind Shah

     
  12. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Arvind

    I'm not denying that Baba Ramdev is immensely popular. Also that he is a good man, with good intentions. But even Nehru was very popular and he destroyed India despite being a good man.

    Good man means nothing. There are hundreds of millions of good Indians. Some, like Baba Ramdev are popular. 

    Governance is the science of freedom. It does not take its lead from popularity but from logic. The spaceship is not designed by popularity but by experts, else it crashes. The science of governance is VERY CHALLENGING, INTELLECTUALLY. It is not a trivial exercise of saying "Let us hang the corrupt!". That is nonsense. It doesn't work. It is destructive and impossible to implement, even if it were just. Justice and freedom are strongly linked together.

    That our systems are defunct is not because people of India are innately dishonest, but because the systems have made them so, because the systems reward dishonesty. Have you read BFN? Please do so. It is crucial that you understand the causes of India's problems before rushing to make policy statements, given that you have recently joined FTI.

    Re: who should contact whom – that is not within my control. I definitely know one thing. FTI is NOT a political party and nothing stops Baba Ramdev from joining FTI if he meets the conditions of FTI. On FTI we (including Baba Ramdev) can discuss and agree policy solutions that can then be implemented. I am also happy to explain things to him should he be interested. I can't do more. And note that I am not obliged to run around after anyone just because they are popular. I've got self-respect. If you respect and value my ideas, then come to me to listen. Else do your own thing. I'm not forcing you.

    FTI members are also not prevented from joining any political party (except clearly socialist outfits). However, FTI members as a whole will not contest elections unless we get policy agreement. That is the key.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  13. Arvind shah

    Dear Sanjeev,
    I fully agree with you that "Governance is the science of freedom. It does not take its lead from popularity but from logic". My intention is, if possible to combine popularity with logic for the benefit of FTI. Combination will work wonder to bring change in India.  FTI should build up either mass followers by itself or join some political party such as Baba Ramdev's "bharat swabhiman" or any other party. To build mass followers FTI should penetrate all education institutions, corporate offices, etc. all over India.
     What India need is educated, accountable, honest, patriotic and capable young political leaders. As I have notice FTI activity basically is computer generated. Most of the members are either NRI or settled abroad. Hence educated middle class, students etc in India can be contacted via email and/or social networking sites like facebook, twitter, Linked in etc.
    I am always open minded and flexible and would like to work with anyone who is interested to bring changes in India. India has very talented and hardworking people and have made remarkable progress in last few years.But because of corrupt government system run by old, corrupt and unqualified political leaders, benefits are not reaching to needy people. With present system rich are getting richer and poor are getting poorer.
    Regards,
    Arvind Shah

     
  14. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    "As I have notice FTI activity basically is computer generated. Most of the members are either NRI or settled abroad."

    Dear Anil you are wrong on your facts. It looks like you have no clue about FTI and just because you have joined FTI recently you are trying to pass public comments about FTI about what it should do or not do. – WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT DOES. That is an improper approach.

    I'm afraid that is not how FTI works. Members are expected to understand things and make suggestions on the FTI forum – and listen to what others have to say. You ought to raise your findings if any on FTI on which you have been totally silent so far.

    Your rush to public conclusions and lectures about what FTI should or should not do does not display a keenness to work as a team. I have far higher expectations of you. 

    You are most welcome to leave FTI if you are going to pass uniformed comments about it without any understanding of what is going on and how it works. I don't think FTI benefits from having people who claim to be its members but have no respect for the team.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  15. Arvind shah

    OK I agree. I acted hastily. I will try to understand FTI working and participate in the forum.
    Thanks
    Arvind Shah

     
  16. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Thanks, Arvind. No probs. We all rush to judgement – something to be avoided. So I look forward to your considered comments on the FTI forum. Definitely FTI seeks to continuously improve. But the main thing is for everyone on the team to discuss things openly with others. 

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  17. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Sanjeev,
    'Dear Anil you are wrong on your facts. It looks like you have no clue about FTI and just because you have joined FTI recently you are trying to pass public comments about FTI about what it should do or not do. – WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT DOES. That is an improper approach."
    You don't know much about Ramdev  , Rajiv Dixit and his Bharat Swabhiman mission too…
    We all need to think of country first our "Bharat Mata" ..our egos , our self respect are secondary ..
    If our Aim is right , as Ramdev's Aim is , and efforts are there .. there are efforts … We will reach there ..
    I have put the lines After Watching Whole "Chankaya" Episode 
    I THink Ramdev is Today's "Chanakya" .
    God Bless him and fulfills his mission.
    Jai Hind

     
  18. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Vijay

    Re: We all need to think of country first our “Bharat Mata” ..our egos , our self respect are secondary ..

    On egos, I agree, but I assert one basic principle: our self-respect MUST be above the nation. The nation is created FOR US, not we for the nation.

    I trust Baba Ramdev’s “Swabhiman” doesn’t mean slavery for the nation, but self-respect for each of us.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  19. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Do you know what it would mean to treat the nation first? You would have to give your earnings AWAY to everyone else, and only after FEEDING everyone else you could then feed yourself. That would effectively mean you starve, since you could never finish feeding others (1 billion people!) with your earnings.

    Second, if you care for the nation first, then you’d not be earning anything, anyway, since everything you do would belong to others. Therefore you would be giving away your labour and expertise to others for free. In both cases you would starve.

    This, by the way, is precisely what socialism requires. Hence all socialist nations starve. Your ideology is socialist. It will fail to benefit either you or India. I do not preach such bad ideologies whereby Indians must starve. I preach the TRUTH. I preach competition. I preach success. I preach greatness!!

     
  20. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Sanjeev
    "I  trust Baba Ramdev’s “Swabhiman” doesn’t mean slavery for the nation, but self-respect for each of us."
    BS is to bring the BHARAT out of the slavery ..
    Is Socialism only about "Nation come first"
    What We mean about Nation come first ..is I will think of the country before doing anything , If my work will affect in the Downfall of country , or am i putting my self interest before Country..
    What I was hinting at , Is If You meet him , I am also trying the opposite there .. Coz I want all good powers to be united.  So we can keep our ego ,self respect here , because there might be clashes of different opinions .. If the outcome of discussion is good , then I am sure we have the country out of the grasp of "Congress" …
    Ramdev is mainly targetting the others class of voters "Which Do not vote" which is the highest among other categories like Congress and  BJP supporters..
    With BS principles, On an average I am able to convince one third of congress supporters :).
    Zero Technology Swadeshi is important NOW because , without getting into Govt is not before 2014. and WTO IMF agreements are killing out industries … Our Rupee is devalued ..
    So Till we cant change policies and get rid of some terms and conditions of WTO , IMF , We need to support our industries ..
    We basicly compaign against … PEPSI COLA , HUL , ITC , BATA , "CHEMICAL FERTILIZERS AND PESTICIDE COMPANIES" , NESTLE , BROOKE BOND  , LIPTON  , CLOTHES AND SALT related MNC companies ..
    and I am finding our products are infact better …or similar .. So Whats wrong in giving an try to our products.. 
    Not the Laptop, Internet , and other techno companies .. 
    For Clothing We prefer Khaadi , It gives good employment and earning to the Basic needs of my country man.. This is an example of putting Country above my self interest .. I prefer T shirt Jeans , But I can wear Khaadi … 
    Jai HInd

     
  21. Supratim

    Dear Sanjeev,
    I am happy that your exploration with Ramdev's philosophy and organisation has finally led you to this point that his policies are ill-thought of, and have neither sound economic basis nor framework that one build on.
    Like a true politician – he has latched on to a couple of hot button issues, which he then proceeds to mangle further –
    1. The issue of banning cow slaughter – firstly, this is surprisingly only an urban issue in India. Second, what no one seems to acknowledge in this discussion about killing cows is that it is already illegal to kill/slaughter (female) cows in India for food, unless they are aged and then can be euthanised, being of no further productive use to the farmer – the farmer is no sentimentalist, I can assure you. I will have to dig up the necessary statutes but this is THE LAW in India.
    However, you can slaughter bulls and buffaloes in India for food, and also grow them as food – unfortunately, while the bulls may have some supporters, our poor black, wallow in the mud, buffaloes have no supporters, whatsoever – I have not seen a single "Ban go-hatya" poster that has the buffalo in it – and when I accused some "sangh parivar" member of racism on this issue, the response was really Kafka-esque: buffalos are ugly and wont look so pretty on the pictures like our pretty cows! So, Al Kabeer is even free to export buffalo meat – somehow the cow protectors can not be bothered to extend their helping hand to the poor buffalo, which immediately disintegrates their core argument. I also read in some interview of a sangh pracharak saying that foreign cows in India (milk cows) are not similarly protected from slaughter- he probably owned a dairy or two!
    And, then you have cow rustlers, who illegally slaughter cows – and many of these illegally slaughtered cows are urban, stray cows whom no one wants to feed or middle-aged cows that richer farmers are disposing off secretively. This is probably less than 0.5% of total beef production of India, although there is no data to substantiate this.
    So, those are the real facts of cow slaughter in India. Therefore, my question always been – who actually grows our indigenous pretty, cows for slaughter in India – please show me some facts and evidence. Why should not, instead, launch a movement for allowing cow slaughter, instead of this misinformation campaign?
    And, then the second point being that if we are to "ban" cow slaughter, mechanised milk production should be equally and 100% banned – after all, the cows are subjected to even more inhuman conditions in these diaries. And, how is it natural order to keep a cow continuously pregnant so that she will produce milk? And, how awful are humans in drinking cow milk – we are the only species that actually drinks milk beyond infancy/childhood and that too of another species! Yuck! How gross!
     
    2. The second issue of multinationals – and "made in India" nonsense – this is such utter jingoistic claptrap that I am amazed by how many people get caught up in it. Can we list down what all IP we own, and hence can produce legitimately in India? Let Ramdev and all his followers please, first, compile this list before we even *start* to debate the merits of this issue.
     
    cheers
     
    supratim

     
  22. Supratim

    Okay, here are the FACTS:
     
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/SC-upholds-cow-slaughter-ban/articleshow/1276425.cms
     
    For some reason, this is a state subject. All states except Kerala and West Bengal have a ban on cow slaughter, except when aged.
     
    Bulls and Bullocks were not covered earlier, but this SC ruling upheld the Gujarat State law banning bulls and bullocks, which has since been taken up by many of the other states (typically BJP-ruled).
     
    So, answer me, all oh Ramdev-bhakts, why is this issue not a red herring? And, why is Ramdev not like any other base politician whipping up emotions using a sensitive issue, which in reality is a non-issue?
     
    Thanks

     
  23. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Supratim,
    Your views on COW seems you are unaware of the organic revolution …
    Bharat Swabhiman , is different from RSS & BJP
    Ya there is a ban .. but .. is it not happening in India Illegaly ..???? 
    We criticize or disallow Non Veg to our members. We treat all animals same , No one should be killed for pleasure ..
    If whole world follow this .. Global warming can also be reduced ..
    and if properly managed , and if globalization is out of food business ..Whole world can be served with Veg food.. Veg food is must .. U can easily survive on Veg food .. but u cant survive only on Non Veg food…
    Cow is special , Because she has the capacity of leading for " Organic Revolution" , which has already started.. and which is the most important issue with workers of BS.
    I have already explained … eating Cow for pleasure is as foolish as using Super Computers for email
     
    Other medicinal values, this animal has.. is different , This animal is so helpful for mankind , and we are gonna prove this.
    We are not sheep .. and if everywhere Cow is a food , It can be in Bharat Also ….
    partial understanding of other organization  , will lead to such arguments Mr Supratim..
    So you decide your thinking , without even understanding others ..  What should I think of your policies then ??

     
  24. Supratim

    Dear Mr Vijay Mohan,
    You have tried to side step the issue – valiantly! – currently, I am not even debating the morality or philosophy of eating meat or not (that is a completely separate issue for me).

    I am questioning the spurious arguments put forward by all the Ramdev-followers in this forum about India needing to ban cow slaughter – Cow slaughter is already banned in India. So, why is Ramdev using this as his number one issue for Bharat Swabhiman movement or whatever – to me, either Ramdev is ignorant of facts, or worse, knowing the facts, he is still trying to use this as an emotional issue.
    Like any other two-bit politico. No difference.

    Please answer this specific point.
    Thanks

     
  25. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Supratim,
    May be I was answering some of the issues in this discussion
    We know there is already a ban on Cow Slaughter , What we are advocating is Capital punishment for Cow slaughter.
    Its not his number 1 issue.
    Thanks!

     
  26. Vijay Mohan

    Answer to Your second Point , you have never listened to him and started making some assumptions and that made you frustrated…
    I have already written before . We want to increase the exports where we are best . And we only want to import where we lag .. 
    Where we can easily find a good substitute or better , why cant we..
    to call this in laymen language we call it "ZERO TECHNOLOGY SWADESHI"
    below is what U missed again from my previous explanation
    Zero Technology Swadeshi is important NOW because , without getting into Govt is not before 2014. and WTO IMF agreements are killing out industries … Our Rupee is devalued ..
    So Till we cant change policies and get rid of some terms and conditions of WTO , IMF , We need to support our industries ..
    We basicly compaign against … PEPSI COLA , HUL , ITC , BATA , "CHEMICAL FERTILIZERS AND PESTICIDE COMPANIES" , NESTLE , BROOKE BOND  , LIPTON  , CLOTHES AND SALT related MNC companies ..
    and I am finding our products are infact better …or similar .. So Whats wrong in giving an try to our products.. 
    Not the Laptop, Internet , and other techno companies .. 
    For Clothing We prefer Khaadi , It gives good employment and earning to the Basic needs of my country man.. This is an example of putting Country above my self interest .. I prefer T shirt Jeans , But I can wear Khaadi … 


    Rest I can only say , my mission is Great India , I am not a member of his Andolan till now , I am outside India now , I shall be coming to India to do smething .. just looking and observing Where should I go to serve my Mother India…   I am new in this field .. But still I can say .. you have not listened to this guy ..and the problem is , You dont want to.. This guy has something in it , He can convince 9 out of 10 people . .. and no one except himself can defeat him in coming elections
    So if You guys want to get the Great india soon .. The quickest path is with this Guy..
    else you need to wait for another elections ..and if he gets really failed with his policies then u may get a chance…..

     
  27. Supratim

    Vijay:
    Capital punishment for cow slaughter is the number one agenda of the Ramdev camp? Are you serious? Really, really serious about this? And, I know it it your and Ramdev's number one point because banning cow slaughter (sic) appears number one on any of these discussions and on any Swabhiman manifesto. And, if you guys indeed *knew* that India already bans cow slaughter – why does your manifesto not say this clearly? Besides you have Harsh above arguing strongly about ENACTING laws for banning cow slaughter. 
     
    Clearly, the entire Ramdev camp is either ignorant or misinformed or both about this topic. 
     
    Second point: interesting point about  the side-step about fighting only certain MNCs. AHaahahahahahaha ….. what a pragmatic stance ….. clearly India's weakness on technology and IP and original research is understood by some of Ramdev's followers, if not all.
     
    However then, my next question to you is: do you propose to ban these MNCs from operating India or would you let the customer choose? You do your marketing and let the markets decide what products they want to buy? Are you going to allow me this choice or are you going to dictate to me?
    cheers
    supratim

     
  28. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    On a factual matter I doubt that cow slaughter is banned (or can be banned) in all states. If you try to ban it in some NE states, you can bid goodbye to these states as a part of India. They will revolt! In many NE states beef is sold on the roadside like any other meat.

     
  29. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Supratim,
    I said Its not his number 1 issue …Please read carefully my friend.. you are getting over excited ..
    Dear Supratim,
    May be I was answering some of the issues in this discussion
    We know there is already a ban on Cow Slaughter , What we are advocating is Capital punishment for Cow slaughter.
    Its not his number 1 issue.
    Thanks!

    From Day 1 , Its Capital punishment on Cow Slaughter .. we know very well there is a ban on Cow Slaughter
    Then From day one of BS .. its always few selected sectors… ..
    . .. I am almost middle of BFN now , started this morning only,,,  The more I read it , the more I am convinced Ramdev is right
    You have most of the answers in BFN … i will comment in further response.. You can then decide you really want to go for these companies..
    Sanjeev You are right ..Its not banned in all states.. But capital punishment will be valid in Complete India. if BS given a chance
    Regarding NE .. Just wait and watch …. Ramdev is very Clever  shrewd  Man … never underestimate him.
    Thanks

     
  30. Supratim

    Sanjeev:
     
    The "beef" usually sold in India is buffalo, not cows. Apparently, all states, except  Bengal and Kerala ban cow slaughter – the ostensible thought  behind these laws is not to appease religious taboos, but was to protect our cattle livestock from being stolen and being sold as food during the 50's and 60's. This was pre-green revolution, and India's agriculture stock was in very poor shape and the modern, miracle of genetically modified seeds had not yet arrived. Most of the laws date back to those days.
     
    Today, this is largely an issue for and of old men, mainly brahmins – educated youth in the cities do not care. Farmers have never been sentimental about their livestock – the animal lives as long as he/she is productive, and net output is greater than net consumption. It has always been of interest to me to find out how these cow-protection types are going to convince farmers to continue feeding their old cows when they can neither give milk nor be used in the yoke.
     
    And, also notice the silence on milk – the reality today is that a majority of our milk comes either from commercially run co-operatives or private dairies – they will also send cows for slaughter when they can not produce any more milk. All of these vegetarian folks not only want to drink cow's  milk, which is probably more un-natural than eating meat, but then force the dairies to keep the unproductive cows and care for them. Wonder what that will do the price of milk?
     
    When these chaps can not even rationally explain the economics of their decision to ban ALL cow slaughter to a farmer or a milkman, we need not bother about their religious or illiberal motives – such a move is NOT enforceable in our markets.
     
    QED.
     
    cheers

     
  31. Vijay Mohan

    Just a Wild thought .. Can you think After WTO / GATT there can be any Free Market ..??
    and Swadeshi is only a protest among BS guys ..it will not be compelled on everyone as a Govt ban .. Coz we cant , India Cant , Coz we have signed WTO and many other policies and we are under huge debt..

     
  32. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Supratim

    Re: “It has always been of interest to me to find out how these cow-protection types are going to convince farmers to continue feeding their old cows when they can neither give milk nor be used in the yoke.”

    The answer is simple: subsidy from other tax payers. This already happens in most parts of India (I think!) where goshalas are set up to cater to these old cows [perhaps 90% of them loiter around on the streets, eating garbage – don’t know the statistics]. The government actually funds these goshalas, and of course, the funds have to come from somewhere. There is no free lunch, not even a cow’s – this is the fundamental law of economics. So the choice is basically very simple: let the people starve or let cows starve/eat garbage.

    I don’t know if you’ve seen “Baraka” (a documentary movie). I saw it yesterday, and it showed some of the most abhorrent and ghastly views of Indian poverty: tens of people climbing garbage heaps to collect food; and tens of cows/bulls doing the same thing. Clearly human life is very cheap in India, and humans don’t seem to matter.

    India has many reasons for its massive poverty – and I’m discovering this one now: confused moral philosophy. Kill a man for eating beef (capital punishment!). Is this the new definition of ahimsa? Is it also from the Vedas? – at a time when beef was the common food of Brahmins? So we pick one aspect of the Vedas (ahimsa) and deny the other; then mix it up so that now it is OK to kill humans?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  33. Vijay Mohan

    FTI is missing a point here..  Cow never stops giving Dung and Urine… THE MAIN INGREDIENTS OF ORGANIC FERTILIZER AND PESTICIDES.. 
    What are FTI views for Organic Farming .. 
    What are your views on BT , MONSANTO , KARGIL ??
    Miracle of Genetically modified food has already happened my friend .. Dont you see Farmers doing suicides , they dont have even the food they grow…
    We will only allow ORGANIC FARMING .. not by LAW ..because we cant change it , signed WTO/GATT   but our workers will help farmers using organinc farming . there are chances that first year production will not high .. but within 3 years it picks it back.. THere is no earth of proofs , which say organic farming is the best way in future.
    You must watch  this documentary by Dr Vandana Shiva .. ( One of my idols)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmiHTx8Yhc8
    Its a must watch video for everyone  in FTI , it will help changing your policies

     
  34. Vijay Mohan

    Hi Sanjeev/Supratim,
    Page 66 BFN , Page 96 in PDF
     Inequality is not the same as poverty. Extreme poverty diminishes
    our capacity to act freely and reduces equality of opportunity. A free
    society needs to take strong action against poverty. On the other hand,
    even the most extreme inequality does not in any way diminish
    anyone’s freedom if all people are well above the poverty line. In the
    USA or Australia, which are relatively freer than India, some people are
    extremely rich, but most are at least well-to-do.
     
    This is the condition in India with 84 Million people below poverty line.. TO US this is extreme poverty…hence its difficult to act FREELY..  ALSO India is under huge debt …
    Our Swadeshi policy is till 2020… most probably ..that too minimal or on limited categories…
    SO FTI can take the power Once BS creates the environment of a FREE and healthy society… If you still feel that policies of FTI are better then BS…

     
  35. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Vijay, thanks for reading BFN.

    The solutions in BFN (see chapter 6) will ELIMINATE poverty in a maximum of three years, not merely reduce it. The BS ‘solutions’ are likely, from what I’ve been reading so far, to increase poverty.

    Re: Health. The solutions in BFN will ensure a minimum good health to EVERYONE (more so the poor) in India within three years, including emergency care for everyone. I don’t any possibility of BS solutions achieving that goal.

    Environment: The solutions in BFN will ensure a clean and hygienic environment in every corner of India within three years.

    And so on.

    The reason is that BFN solutions are based on the world’s best practice and well-incentivised system design.

    Please read on. Let’s discuss after you’ve finished the whole thing.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  36. Vijay Mohan

    Ya Sure!! I am ready for it ..
    Did you views changed a little about Cow ..(Its different from others ) and important.
    I am mainly interested in you views about agriculture.. I know you will not meet baba , but meet Dr Vandana Shiva , she will help your agricultural policies.. she is not linked to BS in anyway other then the agricultural policies..
    How are you going to Counter WTO/GATT ..???

     
  37. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Vijay

    You’ll get a sense of my views by reading Prof. Shenoy’s views that I posted today morning, where he also covered agriculture.

    I’ve not published much yet on agriculture policy, but let me say this in brief: there should be no agriculture policy, just as there should be no industry policy. By freeing ALL markets we will expect a miracle in every sense of the word in India. Even holding a certain amount of reserve grains can be easily organised by paying the market (as part of social insurance regime). We can easily increase our crop yields while preserving the environment, IF we let the markets free.

    Vandana Shiva has unfortunately almost zero knowledge of economics and advocates HIGHLY confused policies (I’ve watched her on TV in the past, and don’t know if she has changed; but I’d rather avoid watching anything she says, unless I see new and improved written work).

    India is VERY UNFORTUNATE that our best economists have left India – indeed, forced out of India. Rarely would you find any economist of even a modest calibre willing to stay and teach in India. On the other hand, our economists now teach students across the entire world in the topmost universities! And the world listens to them.

    (On that issue, let me guide you to the work of Nirvikar Singh, Bhagwati, and Deepak Lal in particular.) Some of their material is available at the India Policy Institute website: http://indiapolicy.org/publications (I am the honorary Executive Director of IPI).

    The closest you get to good economics in the public domain in India is from Parth Shah and Barun Mitra. Listen to them. Read the books their institutes publish! All these efforts of yours will be well rewarded.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  38. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Sanjeev,
    I am waiting for your response on WTO/GATT .. I call them  terrorist agreements where America is free to terrorise India without Arms …
    Definately I will try going through everything you are suggesting.
    But To be honest , I didnt like your views about Dr VANDANA SHIVA..  a very respectable lady..
    When Now FTI is trying for 2014 not sure you will get there or not .. She is not waiting she is working at ground level , helping Farmers gaining there freedom and Self respect .. So if 2014 u r not there .. what will actualy FTI contribute ???  Whtever knowledge she has of economics but it is helping her help the farmers the base of Indian economics .. I believe if we get agriculture going .. we will attain a real good ground required ot be a great India…
    all kinds of person are required in Country.. 
    I read You views About Jansatta and got to your great intellectual journey of life and your passion of your home country ..
    So there is a question  , How many leaders you have got , and how many Jansatta has??
    So if you have to do something for country wihout being in Govt , What is your plan . 2014 is far ..
    Best Regards,
    Vijay Mohan

     
  39. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Vijay

    FTI has no association with Lok Satta. These are different, independent organisations; one is a Trust, the other is a political party. Re: 2014, that is only a goal IF leaders are found and other things happen. Else later. Nothing can be done without right thinking leaders and clear policy agreement amongst them. Waste of time (e.g. Lok Satta’s current efforts). And no, I don’t plan to do anything “on the ground” till leaders are found, although FTI members may do a few small things in the meanwhile.

    Vandana Shiva comes from a totally confused anti-capitalism perspective. She doesn’t understand even the step 1 of wealth creation, leave alone step 10 or 20. Her work may be helping farmers, but I prefer the work that Sharad Joshi does. It helps farmers far more. Read Sharad Joshi. He is an MP (although his term is ending soon). He recently published a new book. You may not like what I say about Vandana Shiva, but I haven’t found anything worthwhile coming from her pen to spend my limited time on. These anti-capitalism views are also known as socialist views: I detest them from the core of my heart since they are the most harmful views known to mankind: they destroy wealth and destroy incentives to work.

    Finally, re: WTO and GATT. Please be aware that trade is good, and more trade is better. Wealth is created ONLY by trade. It is true that some (not all!) Western countries have behaved very badly re: trade, by sheltering their agriculture markets. But the principle is very sound: that by removing barriers to trade, and lowering tariffs, world prosperity will increase – more so of developing nations like India. I wish there was no need for WTO, but given the existence of strong farm lobbies in countries like USA, it is performing a great job to reform the world’s trading system.

    What is your specific objection to WTO? Which act of its do you object to, and can you refer me to the precise WTO document?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  40. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Sanjeev,
    I understand your differences from Lok Satta , and I respect them.
    BFN is really giving me new reforms in my mind , Some doubts are there , can be discussed later,I may come to some of your discussions or meetings happening in India . I would like to contribute many of my thoughts .. No doubt you have a good plan.
    Niether me nor Dr Vandana nor BS is against trade , We all want Export/Import …  vandana says , Keep food , water out of capitalism  , Dont destroy nature , respect the nature , She has no Objection in other trades , and she only speeks about Food and Wate and environment  related stuff.
    With WTO e.g.. the rates of Cotton are decided by US Market , which is a lot subsidized and  With WTO Agriculture in India is not subsidized , So Farmers put huge cost of production(Chemicals & Seeds) but doesnt get a good yield .and only loss is what they can get  ..   There is a lot restrictions for Indian Govt to declare femine and drought ..so that Govt cant help the farmers..
    The farmers never needed the Govt support ,almost rare before so called Green Revolution.With GR the govt made the farmers dependent on it … GR was also imposed it was not needed..and now after support system removed ,,.. and huge increase in cost of seeds and Chemicals fertilizers and pesticides , the only Way out for farmers is SUICIDE… or Organic farming ..
    and many more .. but the place is too small.. Now I will wait of some discussion within FTI and by the time I will go through much of your material..  had a huge learning , definitely going to use this , where ever am I go ..
    All the very best..

     
  41. Nitin Gulhane

    The farmers never needed the Govt support ,almost rare before so called Green Revolution.With GR the govt made the farmers dependent on it … GR was also imposed it was not needed..and now after support system removed ,,.. and huge increase in cost of seeds and Chemicals fertilizers and pesticides , the only Way out for farmers is SUICIDE… or Organic farming . .

    Sorry I don't understand. How much was the total yield before Green Revolution? How much is it now? How much is needed to feed 120 crore people?
    IMO, food is still cheap and available in India…unlike those famines 50 years ago, I don't see widespread food issues anymore. Yes, the poverty is rampant, yes, 1000's of kids go to bed hungry but India has achieved some semblance of independence when it comes to food.
    I have nothing against chemicals used in farming. Afterall, we Indians take all kinds of medicines to remain alive so why is it so bad if our plants get their dosage of chemicals?
    Chemicals (in medicines) are responsible for increasing population of India and so its natural that we use chemicals to increase our foodgrain production.
    I have huge reservations about Baba Ramdev and his political ambitions. A road to hell is paved with noble intentions. His ideas are dangerous and while Indians may end up electing him because of his charisma, his minions, who are earning enormous wealth thru Patanjali clinics, will rule India with ruthless abandon and our kids will not have freedom to choose their own path.
    I value freedom. I would like my kids to find their own happiness…thru Yoga or without it. I don't want some baba to tell them how to live.
    Personally, I don't care about Ramdevbaba but his views are more closer to Hitler in his early days.
    Peace.
     

     
  42. Nitin Gulhane

    Farmers suicide have many reasons and one can write a huge book on that subject. To my untrained but observing eye, it all boils down to economics. I come from Vidarbha…ground zero of farmers suicides. It doesn't take much to experience the abject poverty in which our farmers are living. When I visit my numerous relatives, I fully expect to be served bad tea in broken cups and made to seat on cots that have outlived their lives and their children wear clothes that are older than themselves and footwear is unheard of.
    I do not have enough courage to eat food in homes of people who are related to me by blood because of my squeamish palate. But I do smoke a cigarette all by myself when I am done meeting them and wonder what can be done for these people and whose fault it is.
    The second generation of these folks really worries me. How these kids are going to react when they are exposed to their richer cousins? Will delight or with vengeance? Right now, the poverty is so rampant in India that you can recruit murderers easily and cheaply. Unless there are opportunities for these young men and women to be gainfully employed, they will turn to crime. Today Raj Thakrey talks about invasion by North Indians…before he grows old, he will be talking about invasion from Vidarbha.

     
  43. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Nitin,
    You have No Idea What Organic Revolution is And the Horrible effects of Green Revolution.
    I myself know farmers who were addicted to chemical agriculture but now they are more than happy with Organic Farming .. They have similar or more production , there profits has increased and there life is much better.
    and if you plan to go to villages , where farmers have left chemicals in agriculture and are happy with organic , You will have to check your basics.
    You can check work of Dr Vandana Shiva , I am providing you with one documentary film , Please go through it .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmiHTx8Yhc8
    The organic farming is a proven solution for checking Global Warming ..
    But if you dont want to check other possibilities or other solutions .. No one can help
    THanks

     
  44. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Nitin,
    I sent my reply before reading your second comment.. I apologize for some statements .
    Well I truely believe in Power Of Organic farming .. and I am sure with my experience , that This can be solve most of the problems our famers are facing .. and also Bharat Swabhiman is helping farmers find markets .. So that once they start getting money .. Thay can think of other ways..
    Thanks

     
  45. Nitin Gulhane

    Vijay Mohan says:
    I myself know farmers who were addicted to chemical agriculture but now they are more than happy with Organic Farming .. They have similar or more production , there profits has increased and there life is much better.

    If not using chemical fertilizers can produce better results then that should be teh way to go. We have gone much further on the path of chemical farming. It will be extremely difficult to go back to organic farming.
    At any rate, I think a way too many people are involved in farming in India. That's sheer wastage of human resources.  Farming needs to be converted into businesses and small farmers need to find otehr employment opportunities that will give them better incomes with less physical work. We need to significantly reduce number of people employed in farming sector.
    ABout Ramdev baba and his mission, I am not sure whether he is teh leader that we really want. Yes, he has enormous fan following and yes, he is a leading Yoga teacher and it may be right that he got some people to stretch their bodies and better their lives, however, I am not positive that he is liberal enough to run a massively diverse country like India. Polarized leaders like him bow seeds of future problems. I already see beef-consuming Kerala trying to liberate from saffron rule of India.
    The best Govt is the one that governs the least. WIth Ramdevbaba at the helm, everything will be governed. What I eat, what I wear and what I do in my leisure time will be dictated by cronies of Ramdevbaba. And yes, I have huge problem with Baba's volunteers.
    Patanjali clinics are a huge fraud. You cannot see it when you are sick and are ready to beleive anything. If you have no known diseases and have Rs5000 to spare, I challenge you to visit ANY Patanjali clinic with some phony disease…like you think  you have ulcer in stomach. You will end up spending all your money and will get litres of medicines which will do no good.
    If you trust Ramdevbaba so much, you must test out the veracity of his claims firsthand. There is no dearth of babas in India and each of them have large fan following and their disciples trust their babas completely.  If you beleive that Ramdevbaba's have created some great medicines that beat modern medicines hands down and every Patanjali clinic operators understands about human body than most doctors of medicines, you need to take efforts to test that yourself.
    This baba scares the hell out of me. Hopefully my India doesn't suffer due to him.

     
  46. Vijay Mohan

    Hi Vivek
    If not using chemical fertilizers can produce better results then that should be teh way to go. We have gone much further on the path of chemical farming. It will be extremely difficult to go back to organic farming.
    There are no chances of any "IF" here , Its proven at many places .. i think this is very easy actually , Who in the world does not want to reduce their cost of production ?? and increasing their profit ?? You will see it even before 2014 the elections.. To me this efforts are enough to give him a vote rather than a party who is only promising the growth. and believe it or not , this feeling will be true for most of the Indians.

    At any rate, I think a way too many people are involved in farming in India. That's sheer wastage of human resources.  Farming needs to be converted into businesses and small farmers need to find otehr employment opportunities that will give them better incomes with less physical work. We need to significantly reduce number of people employed in farming sector.

    Let them show the advantages of Organic Farming .. And if our soil and climate is the best and We can export huge amount of organic food (in huge demand). Then let them give freedom to do whatever they want??? 
    Now I will never Vote and Join  FTI efforts… if FTI agrees on last statement of yours "We Need to significantly…." Why dont FTI listen to Vandana Shiva and her efforts and use her vast experience to decide something on Agriculture ." To me the 70% of Indian problems will be resolved by her simple advices .. and she is also prooving her advices..
    For Baba's medicinal Business… I am not 100% sure about his credibility ..I have some conflicts with him .. and conflicts are natural you cant have 100% agreement to any person in the world..  
    But i agree to most of his BS agenda …." .. Patanajali and BS are different.. TO me it addresses most prominent needs of India.. Its not that I dont enjoy and promote freedom … thats why I am here in these blogs..  What all I want is these two groups should work together. and implement what is the best..

     
  47. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Vijay

    Vivek has nothing to do with FTI (he just discovered this blog 2 days ago, and is just like you: a reader).

    Having said his point is generally correct.

    Indeed suggestions in BFN will (a) eliminate poverty and (b) make everyone move rapidly towards wealth. That will increase urbanisation. (see my detailed paper at: No. 5 at: http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/almaak/Termpap/termpap.html)

    Also have a read of the two blog posts at: http://sabhlokcity.com/category/policy-perspectives/urbanisation-and-local-government/.

    One of the strongest indicators of wealth is the level of urbanisation of a society. Freedom leads to opportunities for mental production (not just manual production). The mind produces FAR, FAR more than our mere hands can. An average Australian farmer has an income of Rs.1.5 crore each year. Just two persons (husband and wife) on an average farm manage over 1000 cows, produce lakhs of litres of milk, grow hundreds of tons of wheat, and harvest and package it for sale. Two persons. That’s it. And they have time for leisure.

    The mind can produce 10000s of times more than hands. The free society creates opportunities for the use of the mind. One Bill Gates can produce more wealth out of his one mind than 20 crore farmers of India can, together.

    Countries in the West did not become rich by using their hands, but by using their head.

    So India will definitely urbanise, and quite dramatically, if policies of freedom are adopted. That does not require anyone to tell farmers to move. They will find it MORE PROFITABLE to move to cities.

    If organic farming is profitable, farmers will adopt it automatically. You don’t need Vandana Shiva’s confused ideas to tell them to do so. I have nothing against organic farming, except that I don’t buy it for my family, being too expensive and additional nutritional value not being scientifically proven. Let people choose.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  48. Vijay Mohan

    Thanks Sanjeev,
    I agree , these are personal views … likewise  i will take your view on  Dr Vandana Shiva as you PERSONAL view . and lets discuss with All members of FTI to have FTI's views on her and her model of "Earth Democracy" ,"SOIL NOT OIL"..
    Her Words are proof in itself  , and whole world listen to her .. she has been termed as "PLANET HERO" by times magazine…
    and she is my Hero too…
    lets not make views about someone without proper listening/reading  and following someones work. I feel such in this Blog ..
    Thanks ! rest I am going through your books and other stuff.. 
    Regards,
    Vijay

     
  49. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Vijay

    Vandana Shiva is from an extreme environmentalist tradition that wishes to impose opinions on others and force things down others’ throats. That is an illiberal and anti-freedom position.

    Let the people choose.

    By all means have heros. Your call. I have none. I believe that NO HUMAN BEING is worthy of hero-worship. EVERYONE is imperfect. I believe in critical examination of everyone’s views. I believe in using MY mind, not in using others’ minds. The liberal does not need crutches of heros. Self respect above all.

    The day when I read that Vandana Shiva promotes free trade, promotes property rights and promotes smaller government I’ll listen to her once again (although that’s what I say today anyway, so isn’t it better for me to listen to myself – or even better, to Hayek? Why listen to someone who has for so many decades gone down the wrong path? Maybe she’ll reform? Don’t think so.)

    Btw, FTI is unlikely to accept any envirnomentalist fads, please be assured of that. FTI is still forming, and it is early days, but by no means will we promote fanatic environmentalism. On the other hand, I guarantee that liberalism will protect the environment FAR better than any Green fanatic can. That is a promise. It is based on very sound theory and practice. It is not based on paternalistic views about what is good for others.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  50. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Sorry, Vijay I shouldn’t be making ‘promises’ as a persuasion tool. You, as a citizen of India, are the ultimate author of your destiny. You should understand my points yourself and choose the right path – yourself. Don’t listen to anyone’s promises (even though I believe my promises mean a lot!). Trust your own mind. So read this, below, and decide: http://sabhlokcity.com/2010/05/environmental-policy-in-a-free-society/.

    Choose your life, choose your policies, choose your country’s future.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  51. Ashish Deodhar

    I have witnessed so much of "change" talk on the blogosphere (and most of it undesirable change) that I am beginning to wonder if the status-quo is far better than this "change".
    Ban on cow slaughter, death for corruption… To be honest, I would be happier to live in a socialist India than a clone of the Islamic Republic of Iran!
    We need change but the question is, what kind of change? 

     
  52. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Sanjeev,
    Thanks for your link ..I understand that What you finally want, is same as me and many  of the peoples reading and writing blogs here , Its just the paths and the policies are different.
    Unfortunately , Some of the Things or policies are not controlled by Indian Govt bounded by some agreements , For that we need to teach people what they were unaware of , So that they can really enjoy the freedom of choice ..  I am sure you are aware of such policies . and you must be doing some sort of planning to counter some of the impositions.
    I agree to the concept of FTI .. but before here  I was unaware of ..thanks for reforming my thinking ..   But sometimes it becomes difficult to understand a different level of freedom we are talking about .. like for me Vandana is advocating and practicing an enhanced level of freedom, she is helping others with her experience.. but for you she is forcing …
    Lets wait and watch with our continous efforts , I am sure all good will converge..  as level of freedom is properly understood and agreed 

     
  53. Nitin Gulhane

    Most people who claim to bring about huge and miraculos change are liars. Gone are the days when one person could set the direction of the nation (Nehru, Gandhi and other superpowerful leaders). Current India is divided from wherever you look at it. And thats a good thing. A sign of more mature and empowered society.
    What I particularly dislike about Ramdevbaba and his ilk is their to bring about fundamental changes in the lives of people. Such people, when given enough power, censor TV shows, movies and edit newspapers…all in the name of greater good. We just have to look at our neighbor Pakistan to see what Zia ul Haq did to the media and how he enforced Islamic laws with gay abandon.
    Govt must concentrate on 'superficial\ things like Economy, GDP, employment, credit availability, export-imports, pollution and infrastructure. It must let people to worry about 'deep' subjects like religion, spirituality, food choices, drink choices, language choices etc.
    I think my posts are becoming repitative…so let me restate one last time: Ramdevbaba as a supreme ruler of India will be a disaster…and I will be in jail for writing these posts if his party comes in power.
    Good luck my dear India.

     
  54. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Nitin,
    Dont Worry.. about future .. You will have more freedom then you have now ..Govt will be more responsible for its actions..
    The problem here is , You have not understood this person and his beliefs.
    the day you understand , you will find you are in same shoes.
    Vijay
     

     
  55. Nitin Gulhane

    The problem here is , You have not understood this person and his beliefs.
    the day you understand , you will find you are in same shoes.
    Vijay

    Not true. I understand him very well.  His desciples are trying to see a superman in him…but he isn't. He is just a man who runs a chain of shady and illegal medical shops and sells some untested medicines for Rs 1000 to gullible poor people.
    I know that his desciples beleive that his medicines are fruit of research done by his Doctors. But I can tell you that his researchers use Allopathic medicines for their kids.
    Forget all the drama on TV and on youtube. Try going near the business empire of the baba and you will find the truth. Don't let Babas incessant rants about 'corruption free India' to beleive that Baba is full of honesty.
    I have done my due diligence before reaching to the conclusion that he is a fraud. A good Yoga teacher but if does get the power he and his close associates will destroy India for some crores. I do have solid proofs and I may get into trouble if he and his cronies get into power.

     
  56. Nitin Gulhane

    Dont Worry.. about future .. You will have more freedom then you have now ..Govt will be more responsible for its actions..
    This is a blind confidence. I don't understand this at all. Its like saying he is a God and a Messiah who will fix everything. This guy cannot even manage his 'Patanjali' empire with honesty and he is going to make everybody honest?
    A few visits to Patanjali is in order to get a taste of how this guy is going to rule India if he gets into power.
    I don't think that Baba Ramdev is a bad guy. He is a good Yoga guru and he does make sounds that make him come across as a good guy…however, the people around him have become greedy and are trying to encash baba's popularity.
    While I have distaste for all political parties, I would take Congress, BJP, BSP and Shivsena than Baba. At least these national parties understand that 'cow slaughter' is a non-issue as compared to water and education. The ymay not be able to do it but at least they don't make silly tall claims.

     
  57. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Nitin

    Your comment was very strong. I was in two minds whether to publish it or not. But since I believe you are a responsible for your comment, not me, I have published it (my blog has a disclaimer that puts responsibility for their comments squarely on the commentators).

    You are not entitled to call anyone a fraud without proof. There is no such freedom of speech. You are now obliged to provide proof on this blog. Should the Baba choose to sue you for libel, the only way you will be able to escape accountability is by proving without doubt that he IS a ‘fraud’. Else I’m afraid you’ve exceeded the limits of freedom of expression. Freedom is not license to harm. You are now directly harming the Baba’s reputation.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  58. Harsh Vora

    As far as I know Baba Ramdev, he is not in the least disturbed by such mindless accusations from people like Nitin bhai. Babaji has seen far worse irrational, false accusations from politicians in life. He believes that once a person undertakes the challenge against corruption, mindless and the most sour criticisms are bound to come.
     
    Baba Ramdev is dedicated and committed to eliminating corruption, and doesn't have time to sue people for cursing him. After all, he is originally a saint. Patiently drinking the poison of baseless criticisms is in the rishis' very blood. So, rest assured Nitin!

     
  59. Nitin Gulhane

    Proof that Baba Ramdev is a fraud? I have no proof that can be produced. And even if I had, I wouldn't publish it here…Thats too dangerous to do in a country like India.
    At any rate, let me state the obvious.
    1. His desciples claim that Baba's medicines work. The fact is they don't.
    2. His desciples claim that Baba is corruption free. The fact is most Patanjali clinics don't give receipts.
    3. His desciples claim that Pranayama is magical. The fact is, it is NOT.
    4. His desciples claim that Baba will ban cow-slaughter. The fact is, its a non-issue for a country like India
    Harsh said:
    He believes that once a person undertakes the challenge against corruption, mindless and the most sour criticisms are bound to come.
    Harsh, I am no politician. Not yet. I don't have money or following. Baba is a super powerful man and I am nobody. He has millions of fans and not even my neighbor knows me. However, I will not accept his irrational statements with blind faith. If he can make India corruption free while keeping it democratic, it will be a miracle. I am too old to beleive in miracles.
    My concern is not what Baba does and says…I am more concerned about what his millions of volunteers will do once they get into power.
    His enormous following can bring him to power (and take my word, he has money power too). I do not beleive that he can do anything good for India.
    I have children to bring up in India and the most important thing I want for them is a physical safety for them. I see that Baba's rule will destroy India much worse than British rule and Congress rule did (this is not to say that I am a BJP fan).
    However, I still have a hope that Baba and BJP will vie for same vote banks and get decimated. I have huge misgivings about current Congress leaders and their culture of sychophancy but they are far better than the medicine man.

     
  60. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Nitin

    Re: (2) – You believe many (most) Patanjali clinics are breaking India’s tax laws. Cash transactions are grossly improper, in my view, since that is the most elementary source of our black economy. This is not a form of corruption since corruption involves only people paid through taxes – government servants and MPs/MLAs. However, it is a serious allegation and shows the Baba Ramdev in very poor light.

    Earlier also I had asked: does he ensure that he ONLY receives donations (above a very small amount) by cheque?

    Does anyone of his devotees have anything to say on Nitin’s allegation that Baba Ramdev is sitting on a large pile of black money? – that basically he is just any other common tax thief.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  61. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Sanjeev / Nitin ,
    As I told you , before , You know very little about this guy "Ramdev" and you dont want to know more .. you are asking questions from his fans …..
    He has full records of Money he recives ( in 100's of Crores)  , He shows all the records in Interviews in front of everyone..
    Its not baba patented medicines , its Ayurvedic Medicines , (Charak Sanhita) — If you dont believe in Ayurveda its your problem.
    he has started a research with current scientific standards to prove the effectiveness of medicines.
    Its not baba's Yoga .. He is just popularizing it , He has not done even a single yogic stunt by himself … and infact he has already popularized it … and worst of all if 1 out of 100 is effected from Yoga … What is your concern..
    Whenever I have visited patanjali Chikitsalaya  , I get a slip .. no matter whatever i buy.
    His ayurvedic medicines has very low profit margin than most of the allopathic has , and he is working it to reduce even more , he is buying medicinal plants from farmers at very good rates.
    What I found here is ..People no more trust yoga , ayurveda and baba's…… and that is stopping them to undersand Ramdev… 
    You have to change your mindset to understand him , just as you expect to change peoples mindset to understand the concept of freedom … and believe me my mindset is changing .
    To me He will be much better than Congress/BJP and any of the Current Govts..
    Thanks!
    Vijay 

     
  62. Supratim

    Dear Nitin,
    This is a storm in a teacup – Ramdev is largely an urban figure, that too limited to a few regions/communities, within the great diversity that is India. To the extent, that the Congress is using him as a monkey's paw to divide the "hindutva" vote (Raj Thackeray, anyone?), it harms the only other national level party, BJP.
     
    Personally, I do not see Ramdev being able to do much politically, except in a few constituencies – given all the land that has been "acquired/gifted" to his "business empire" in Haridwar, he can only take a few steps and then if he really poses a danger, the establishment has enough "dirt" to decimate him.
     
    The other reason I am generally amused by people thinking that Ramdev is a real political alternative is that India has never given into demagogues – we are too diverse, even the "royal dynasty" of India – the Gandhis – can not pull in all the states. The only demagogue who came close was Bose, but even he was put in his place by the machinations of Gandhi and his protege, Nehru!  So, relax, and just enjoy the show!!!
     
    cheers
    supratim

     
  63. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Thanks, Vijay,

    “Whenever I have visited patanjali Chikitsalaya , I get a slip .. no matter whatever i buy.”

    Nitin, anything to say? This contradicts your statement.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  64. Vijay Mohan

    Dear Supratim,
    Never Underestimate this man , This man has guts to change to change ….
    His fan  following is in Crores..already …and is only increasing … I dont have even a single doubt he will not make it , 
    THe time when he announced his entry in politics ,,, all voting .. done all channels .. 95% said yes , they are happy with him entring the politics … and his popularity has only increased..
    Though whatever I have learnt from Sanjeev , I think Ramdev should put some efforts on Overall draft of policies that Sanjeev and BFN has .
    Regards,
    Vijay

     
  65. Nitin Gulhane

    Sanjeev says:
    Thanks, Vijay,
    “Whenever I have visited patanjali Chikitsalaya , I get a slip .. no matter whatever i buy.”
    Nitin, anything to say? This contradicts your statement.
    Regards
    Sanjeev

    I accept defeat…for now.  And take back my allegations as I don't have any evidence (and will refrain from making those allegation until I gather the 'presentable' proof)
    Folks that I talked to don't remember receiving the formal receipt that has transaction history. However, it is entirely possible that I had encountered an occassional blip and folks I talked to were forgetful. I promise I will make a video recording during my next visit.
    Supratim says:
    Dear Nitin,
    This is a storm in a teacup – Ramdev is largely an urban figure, that too limited to a few regions/communities, within the great diversity that is India

    Ramdev baba's immense popularity is what scares me. Don't underestimate him. He does have money power and popularity to turn the tables on anyone. There are millions who swear by his medicines and his yoga. I am not one of them. To me the branch of medicine that cannot cure Dengue or Malaria cannot cure cancer or heart diseases.
    I am hoping to raise my children in a free India. I am convinced that if Ramdevbaba comes to power, he wil make India a horrible place for a common man.
    My last post on this topic until I find substantial evidence against Ramdev baba.
    Until then, let me pray for continued freedom for my people.

     
  66. Nitin Gulhane

    WHere does Baba Ramdev says that he wants to award death penalty for slaughtering cows? I don't see any video or reliable source on the internet.
    Please help.
    Thanks

     
  67. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    This was reported by Harsh. In a separate video I saw him advocate capital punishment for corruption. I have reason to believe he does advocate killing people as a policy solution for a number of what he sees as evils. Harsh, you might want to show Nitin the exact video/source where he advocates capital punishment for cow slaughter. Thanks!

     
  68. bhavesh

    i don't know much about all these things, but i feel that people here are just over reacting to what baba says. the whole world knows baba's contribution to health and well being of indian society. some one commented that he runs illegal medical centres of untested medicines. shame on those people who say something totally baseless. he probably hasn't watched single programme o baba in the morning. the camps where thousands of people come to attend, doctors, engineers and everyone and not just the poor people. i think we should stop ctrising an honest person and try to understand his mission and should respect his efforts for free india, a country free from corruption and should encourage his sense of self dependism and less relying on foreign things when india itself is capable of producing mostly everyting, and shame on those indians who say that bab's website is not made in india. those people would be surprised that most of it professionals allover the world are indians. ignorent people can't respect the largest democracy and highly intelligent people of inda

     
  69. shashi

    I agree that Baba Ram Dev has the money, following and all resources to turn the tables on any one. I would love to see him make a demand from his followers to keep their neighborhoods and cities clean, if he can achieve that he can achieve cleaning the Govt. also. If he cannot preach the civic awareness and responsibility he is as dangerous as any one with a rock in a glass house.

     
  70. Nitin Gulhane

    Kumar said:

    Dear All,
    Please have a look at Bharat Swabhiman yatra(It's not a political party till now)…an awareness yatra  by Ramdev…
    http://www.bharatswabhimantrust.org/bharatswa/Bhart%20Swabhiman%20Yatra.pdf

     

    I just read thru the website. Man!!! This guy is claiming that Indians have invented everything…geology, physics, chemistry, archeology, medicine…you name it and Indians have invented it. This is crazy and anybody who makes such claims is a liar of highest degree. I am aware of many Islamists claiming that Quran and Islam has all of the science…but even their claims pale in front of claims made in this website. I am yet to see the Baba follower who depends on Ayurvedic and Baba's medicines for their kids.
     
    If somebody is claiming that Baba's medicines are the best and still uses Allopathic medicines for himself and his family then he is a low grade person who needs a kick on his behind…but then what one can expect from baba's desciples. Liars.

     
  71. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Nitin

    I’ve published your comment but I think it borders on libel. Maybe the same thing can be said with more circumspection (although I’m guilty as well of making blunt attacks against – but against the corrupt). Indeed, I’m studying the claims that ancient India had discovered everything under the sun. Why don’t you publish a carefully researched post (I’m happy to include as guest post on my blog)?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  72. Rohit Pardasani

    @Sanjeev
    Dear Sir,
    I agree with you on some points and differ on some other. But already a lot of discussion has taken place on each of the points. Though I am a supporter of Bharat Swabhimaan, but as an educated individual with a spark of patriotism I also form a part of Indian intelligentsia. So I very well know that there may be some shortcomings in philosophy and goals of Bharat Swabhiman and Baba Ramdev Ji. But people like you and me who form part of Indian intelligentsia (or liberals) fail to realize that in India literacy rate is still not even 50% (to be practical). The liberal ideas (which are sometimes too complex in nature) cannot be propagated to masses easily. We as part of Indian masses still need "Heros" and "Leaders" to guide us. I am sure that though you disagree with Baba Ramdev Ji on some points, your instincts must be telling you that there is nothing grossly wrong with this man's philosophy and ideology. And same is true.
    Its inherent nature of education that it brings with it a feeling of individualism. That is the reason why successful revolutions are brought by masses who are not highly educated but these masses try to follow some common ideals. Mahatma Gandhi realized this and he was able to unite nation for a common cause. Baba Ramdev knows this very well and he is able to connect himself with the rural masses. And I think there is nothing wrong in it. However hard a leader tries he/she will never be able to appease the entire intelligentsia. And whats the use of appeasing 1-10% population which can hardly play any role in making a country's destiny (you must be knowing what percentage of educated Indians caste their votes). Also this group owing to social, economic and education system of India has become slave of government and corporates.
    So I think rather than Indian intelligentsia saying at this point
    "Why should we support Bharat Swabhiman? This agenda has 50 points out of which 5 are unacceptable us. Why not form another party with these 5 points set right?"
    @Indian Intelligentsia
    Please realize that unity is more important than individualism to overthrow this corrupt system. The first and foremost aim of Bharat Swabhiman is to overthrow rule of corrupt political leaders, bring back to India black money lying in foreign banks and make stringent laws against corruption. Bharat Swabhiman is just the first step, reforms will continue and will continue with more vigor, once this revolution attains a success. Indian intelligentsia will play a vital role in these changes. Its role will become more significant as literacy levels rise. But this is not the right time to differ with Bharat Swabhiman (which already has a great goals and philosophy to carry India to next level, accompanied by support of common man). Small differences (like 100% swadeshi or 75% swadeshi, animal slaughter etc.) between Indian intelligentsia and Bharat Swabhiman can be dealt later.

    Vande Mataram, Jai Hind
    Rohit Pardasani
    Graduate Electrical Engineering
    IIT Roorkee
     
     

     
  73. Rohit Pardasani

    In continuation of the above, we all know utopian society is impossible. But a 10% corrupt political system is much better than a 99% corrupt political system. So Bharat Swabhiman is definitely a step in right direction. And so is FTI. But it would be much better if FTI joins hands with Bharat Swabhiman, because in present scene Bharat Swabhiman has greater mass appeal than FTI. As I said differences can be sorted out later.
    As far as the future of Bharat Swabhiman is concerned, whether it will eat into Hindu votes (votes of BJP, VHP, Shiv Sena), whether it will be able to overthrow Congress etc. its too early  to predict. Presently Bharat Swabhiman is reaching rural masses (these are the masses which caste their votes sincerely), so it seems promising. Never in his speeches nor in the agenda of Bharat Swabhiman seems to be favoring Hindus. I have seen Muslim leaders speaking in favor of Bharat Swabhiman, so its too early to say that it will not get support of Muslims. Moreover, support of rural commons is more important than religion based support.
    To Indian intelligentsia only thing I would like to say now is either support current political system or Bharat Swabhiman. Better not take other stand for now. It will only divide the minority of educated Indians who think for the nation.

     
  74. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Rohit

    Thanks for your thoughts. The situation with FTI is very clear. It is a platform for leaders who believe in classical liberal principles to assemble, in preparation of a political movement for reform. 

    It is possible that there don't exist leaders with sufficiently clear thinking in India. Then India will have to go through further torture; further misgovernance. The route of Bharat Swabhiman (as I understand it) is not likely to take India forward, but backward.

    It is possible that the message of classical liberalism is hard to disseminate (I'm not quite sure about this – it is not that hard to understand), but then it is our responsibility to try to disseminate it. We can't give up and say that just because the voters won't understand we should offer something that will fail.

    Let me repeat what I wrote just yesterday on my blog: The problems of India are only tangentially about corruption. Indeed, corruption  is more a symptom than than the disease. Our fight is not just against corruption but against bad policy that creates – among many other side-effects – corruption

    And there is ONLY one correct way to govern: by paying regard to classical liberal principles. All other ways will lead to corruption and theft.

    If that is the case then it is important to state it clearly and to request Baba Ramdev once again (as I have done through my blog) to allow those who understand policy-making to design policy. Unfortunately, Baba Ramdev tends to make his own impromptu speeches wherein he displays very poor or non-existent understanding of the principles of good governance. That is not the way to solve India's problems.

    Baba Ramdev must defer to policy experts, else he will take India into another ditch.

    In many ways, parties like Congress and BJP have attracted high quality policy experts (with their moral character I, however, disagree with), but Baba Ramdev seems to be insistent on imposing his half-baked conceptions of policy onto India. I don't agree with that approach. 

    Let's not make this a battle between "intelligentsia" and the others. Let this be a battle between those who advocate good policy and those who don't. There are 100s of variants of bad policy. Baba Ramdev's is one of them.

    I care AT LEAST as much as Baba Ramdev does, about India and its future. Unfortunately, there are few takers for wisdom and good principles of governance in India. Mob rule and populism is the order of the day. That can't be good.

    FTI will continue its mission. It is the ONLY group that can truly transform India. I encourage anyone who truly cares for India and wants world-best policies to be implemented in India, to join FTI.

    If Baba Ramdev truly wishes to achieve a great India he should read my book/s and apply to join FTI. We can then work together. I don't budge from good principles in the name of populism. If deferring to populism was my goal I would have taken a different path in life.

    I care for INDIA, not for any single individual, and the path I offer is THE ONLY moral and viable path. The path of freedom. All other paths are statist and dictatorial and will destroy India further.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  75. Kumar

    Dear Nitin,
    As per your post… I just read thru the website. Man!!! This guy is claiming that Indians have invented everything…geology, physics, chemistry, archeology, medicine…you name it and Indians have invented it. This is crazy and anybody who makes such claims is a liar of highest degree.
    Swami Ramdev doesn't say everything has been been invented by Indians.. he is just highlighting the basic inventions so called the building blocks which catered towards modern discoveries and inventions. 
    Let me quote u a famous note by Einstien : 
    When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous.” We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no "worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made.“ ALBERT EINSTEIN 
    Let me give u all a healthy list of major invention and discoveries: 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_inventions_and_discoveries
    Swami ji idea is to boost up the morale and confidence of Indians who are still after 64 years of independence feel they are subservient of west!! and he is not lying about it…. 
    Even if you ask majority of youth of so called Engineering Colleges … "what you gonna do after graduation?" Their first answer is go US/UK.. do an MS from any college(be it any college) ..do some part time jobs…booze…etc!! And back home their parents are proud…thts their son is studying  'Abroad' ..just to show off…to garner some respect among their own colleagues..
    Important thing is are they contributin anything to science….then whts the need of such huge migration just for the sake of $$ and euros..
    The big question is why isn't so much research facilty back at home…why is there not money pumped in Education sector… Why can't our regional colleges other than IIT/AIIMS be upgraded so that every child gets an equal opportunity to pursue his dreams. But alas 64 years of independence could only fetch us a road just to reach America!! so called "American Dream"…. 
    For that purpose I want to support this movement …. I want an Indian …doing research in India contribute to science beyond the scope of Nobel Prizes etc…
    Jai Hind

     
  76. nilesh pawar

    Hi Sanjeev,
                  i want to say something for point as you mention " Second, (b) – i.e. ban on cow slaughter – contradicts the religious freedom of Muslims and Christians (and many Hindus as well) to eat beef. How can people live their personal life as Muslims or Christians but be forbidden by the state to eat beef?"
                i don't  know much abt baba but as i understand Baba recommends  no Animal killing which is totally right.my understandings are :
    as per our body structure & functioning Veg diet is good. Unnecessary killing animals is very bad thing. even muslim & christians don't want to see (i have seen when they cut animals they do it in secluded place away from womens & childrens) when animal cries due to fear & pain of death. all religions support non violance only but for taste and EGO towards other these people are killing innocent animals which DO AFFECT environment cycle,grain production etc  actually muslim & christans religions are created for people who have very uncontrol senses thats why they allow meat eating sometimes at certain conditions (but this people eat regulalry) . meat eaters are very selfish and short tempered people see divorce rate and crime rate in meat eaters. also we can see in muslim there is speical prayer before they cut animal (HALAL) which they don't do it for veg food which prooves that it is special condition.
     also when it comes to society we should compromise some habits for everyones benifit.in india it is not at all required to eat meat as we have all veg variety available.
    something is always better than nothing i agree baba is not good in economics but he have support of common men and i request u to help him to make india better.

     
  77. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Nilesh

    Everyone must be fully entitled to their own opinion and tastes. You make valid points and that is your perspective.

    All I’m saying is that you can’t enforce this (vegetarian) view on everyone. You can show them this view and ask them to change their food habits but CAN’T (in a free society) IMPOSE.

    Indeed, if Baba Ramdev is serious about not killing ANY animal, then I’d like to see Baba Ramdev start first by prohibiting CHICKEN and FISH eating in India. (I don’t agree with prohibition but let him first start with chicken and fish). Next he can go to PORK (which many Hindus eat but not Muslims). Only after that he should go to BEEF.

    By focusing on beef FIRST, he is basically imposing A PARTICULAR Hindu worldview on everyone (MANY Hindus eat beef even today). Any imposition is incorrect. Imposition of A PARTICULAR religious view on others is CRIMINAL.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  78. Rajinder

    The only difference I see between FTI and Ramdev Baba, is that Ramdev is fearless and FTI is not.
    Being fearless is important if one wants to bring a “transformation” but to bring a change, one can be strategic, analytic, politic and a lot many other things taught in various policy schools (I am studying in one). The difference is, change is a transition and transformation happens like an explosion.
    Transformation doesn’t imply that everything will be achieved. But yes, with transformation, the baggage of past will no longer be present, and future looks bright and positive from that day. If Ramdev succeeds, it will be a transformation and if not, the change will continue, which no one denies, India is changing and will change (for good) in the years to come.

    Peaceout.
    Rajinder

     
  79. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Rajinder

    Thanks. A challenging comment indeed! But note that FTI is merely a group of leaders, not a political movement. Its members will move into politics once they are ready.

    Systematic change is what is needed, not explosive change which will throw up merely another bunch of crooks.

    India gets what it deserves. Its educated middle classes shy from change, then others will take over. No guarantee that the change will be for the better.

    The best would be for high quality leaders to assemble and agree policies. I am happy for Bharat Swabhiman leaders to join FTI and agree policies. Then people can get the best of both worlds.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  80. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    As the Central party more specifically congress has looted the North east ; even Sangmaji seems to be toe the idea that none can trust congress party ; which as critics says may be waiting for the old and sick leaders of its alliance partners to phase out . And recently after all the blame of corruption put on alliance partner ; the coalition partners have all the reason to fear them , as to some critics even the 1st batch of the Black money list in the Swiss bank may be shown of their alliance partner . As a month back mischievously laughing Pranab Mukherjee was seen to be telling some business man names .
    So far BJP have been not tested in North east and barring in Assam we have no direct confrontation with the BJP or Bharat Swabhiman Party ; therefore they should like to have coalition with us also as for another 10 years they will like to have a formidable ally in this region where they have less presence after all they will also not like to miss the bus like they did in Assam .The People First motto can only be practised in letter and spirit by the regional party of the North east .After all the regional feeling alone can bring love for the region which alone can counter corruption and nepotism to a great extent . The well educated and qualified regional leaders due to their national and international connections may also help the Investors who have been facing tremendous problem in North east. As the regional Party alone has the moral right to negotiate on behalf of the regions peoples, henceforth the corporate houses working in NE is accepted to be really tactful.

     
  81. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dr Gogoi

    What party do you belong to (“they should like to have coalition with us”)?

    Btw, I’m afraid I worked in NE India (Assam/Meghalaya) for a very long time and unfortunately it is NOT true that ” the regional feeling alone can bring love for the region which alone can counter corruption and nepotism to a great extent “.

    The reality is that AGP had ABSOLUTELY no idea of policy. They were basically unthinking socialists with no clue about governance. And most of them became SUPER-corrupt. I’m afraid unless a liberal movement is established across India, no amount of ‘solutions’ being offered will work.

    Anyway, happy to discuss if you have a different idea about such things.

    Regards
    Sanjev

     
  82. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    I have read all the Cons and Pros related with this article.I want to note V.Imp Points Just By Looking At Article.
    1}The number of comments are unusually high which shows the depth Baba has rooted into ordinary Indian inspite of the fact media generally plays biased or neutral role towrads him.
    2}Cow slaughter is a subject of matter which is in Our directive principles of constitution and except Bengal and Kerela all states have banned slaughter but still it goes in every state i.e why India being 80.5%{2001}Hindu country is second biggest exporter of Beef.
    3}I was told on Bangladesh Border specifically in front entry points because all border is barricaded in 2003 Muslim/Christians personel of BSF are being deployed to ease movement of slaughter trade other people are forced if they dare they end with a transfer.I myself be visiting this place to cross check in April when trade is in full swing.
    4}To all Cons and Pros I have one conclusion this person has dared the system which very few fraction of us could really do something is better than nothing maybe some of you feel this.
    5}Anyhow if he comes to power one baba will not be running the Government there would be policy makers mixed of Sanjeev,Nitin and me:)
    6}Liberal groups Leaders call others as Bloody Indian?Maybe they feel themselve of any exotic breed.
    SEE THIS Video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvYIWE2Ap50&feature=feedlik

     
  83. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dr Gogoi

    Thanks.

    Re: “Liberal groups Leaders call others as Bloody Indian?” I don’t understand this. What is a liberal group? Social liberal/classical liberal? Which group? Can you name? When? Where? Etc.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  84. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    I won’t figure any specific party out but I mean’t so called secular parties other name for them liberal parties because according to your defination parties such as bjp are hindu parties not liberal because of no equal rights to muslims?
    Liberalism is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality
    Everyone knows how much liberty could any political party shows in one specific area if it is populated with one majority religion or community.

     
  85. Rajinder

    Dear Sanjeev,
    You are right, explosive change is not thought or dreamt by middle class Indians, ( I am one of them). But when I look at this video of Ramdev http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjSYFNvaPgo , which was on-air today on all the news channel then all I see his complete fearlessness. You must see it.
    What I would like say that, when an entrepreneur successfully initiates a start-up (like Google, Facebook, Apple, Youtube, FTI etc.), what is required is ground breaking innovation and creativity and a thinking which is beyond the rule book(doing mistakes as well). Once the start up gets accepted by the public and has then to function effectively, then definitely experts are recruited into the team to scale it bigger, to monetize it.
    I believe, the same role of bringing the expert advise and knowledge can/will be played by FTI, policy makers, economists and others knowledgable and able men and women who will/can support Ramdev political organization if he is successful in his mission.
    Compared to other NGOs, social organizations, Ramdev is playing an altogether different game and that is because he is not following the rule-book which is perhaps lying on the shelf of a Harvard library. I won’t be surprised, if some guys from Harvard are in his team as well but they are only there to mentor his political strategy, the final risk is still taken by him, when he speaks alone in public.
    I’m sure, he will be happy to accept the flaws in his strategy once he knows that there are better ways of creating a prosperous Bharat. But right now, I think its important that we all support his fearlessness, creativity and add to his strength. For him every day and every second is important, so I wouldn’t object to anything he is trying now. Be it banning cow slaughter, or be it recalling currency bills of higher denomination. I wil play the role what I am good at. I am waiting for my turn to contribute and I know, my turn has not come right now. But in the meantime, I am sending all my strength and well wishes to Ramdev.

     
  86. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    You’ll have to name the parties concerned since by my clear understanding, there is NO liberal party in India today. Indeed, that is what I’m working towards.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  87. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    When I said there is a Liberal party in existence?It’s just a illusion eg- for JDU in Bihar.Nevertheless small campaigns will rise and die without any mark eg-The number of political parties registered in India one thing common is they never come to power this is same situation like exam of AIEEE.
    READ THIS CAREFULLY
    Ans-For success the only way is 100% Total Commitment best example to explain is very simple consider a student who want to join any elite college such as IIT for this student Commitment to his work{study} comes by Concentration everyone would agree after that many individual brains would STOP thinking BUT the real Question arises How concentration come ? If I ask many people would say it depends on Individual my Ans is BIG NO.First I would teach concentration means least distraction so one could work on single Aim But then how it will come the Ans is SACRIFICE eg TV,Net,Chat,Networking etc for a student!! In any exam like AIEEE in which 10LAKH students appear but in real those who get rank till 50K{190+/432} are selected also student who get into IIT merit is repeated in first 10K rank of AIEEE but Tragedy is that out of 432marks students who get rank above 1Lakh not even reached 40Marks!!It means 8-9Lakh of them were misguided or non-serious other would argue paper is made very tough I agree but I have seen CBSE guidlines they keep easy ques too IIT cutoff is more WORSE .
    From my experience things are very simple but often we quit them just because they are wrapped with overalls which we eventually judge them into a burden of work ,pain and feeling of loosing eventually.
    In politics for eg see facebook there are lakhs of Fan groups for Noble causes but eventually what happens on ground is ZERO{AIEEE}.On ground I see very few people working just like students{AIEEE} in these I name Ramdev a successful aspirant I agree he may have vested interest Why not this is in Human Nature? Even science has proved it but outcome would good?
    I am now determined to join Bharat Swabhimaan at some higher level no matter how much money or toil it would take for me.
    I would conclude on this note- Defeat is not in my creed I don’t understand it’s defination.No one would tell me Who I am and Can be ,Belief will change my world it has put man on the moon and it would carry me through this battle!Weakness will not be in my heart I will never surrender no matter How bad things go I have trained my mind my body will follow.
    I would believe what others have doubted by which eventually I would conquer what has not been conquered.

     
  88. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    You are most welcome to join any party you wish! I am looking for leaders who understand the CAUSES of India’s problems, think clearly, and are not swayed by emotion.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  89. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Dear Sanjeev
    I have kept my viewpoint to you in detail it is based on proven facts and not by emotion although emotion is also very crucial like it is in relationships.You yourself judge on internet newspaper articles etc the views and comments are triple than normal by this I have least one guarantee that Educated class would vote for Bharat Swabhimaan.
    I don’t just say I will do by joining as Founder Member of Bharat Swabhimaan
    LINK To Founder Member-http://pyptdonation.divyayoga.com/index.php?cPath=21

     
  90. samira

    allopathy culdnt cure my 12 yr old sinus problem.but it has been cured by pranayam n ayurvedic medicines in just 6 months…..after that i developed trust in baba ramdev.
    baba ramdev's patanjali yogpeeth sells wonderful ayurvedic medicnes at a minimal price.which the other companies used to sell at a very high price.
    lot of people have been cured by these medicines.
    300 yrs back there was no allopathy.ayurved existed some more than milions of yrs ago in india in the sacred vedas.baba ramdev has popularised ayurveda n yoga.
    aloopathic medicines has lot of side effects but ayurveda doesnt have any.
    allopathy has been created by man. but ayurveda is a gift of god to mankind.
    baba has all the records of money recieved in donation. he has cured millions of people all over the world.
    at haridwar patanjali yogpeeth offers free treatment, free medicines n free stay to very poor people .
    he wants a ban on cow slaughter becuse, cow is an animal whose dung n urine is used in curing some diseases which cannot b cured by allopathy.cows milk is the healthiest drink known to mankind.if all the cows r killed like this than there will very few cows in this country.
    baba ramdev has done a lot for humanity……..specially for the poor.
    before writing such stupid stuff about baba ramdev, look at ur self first n ask urself, what have u  done for ur country n humanity………

     
  91. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Samira

    By all means use cow products and its urine. I’m not stopping that! Commercialise it. Mass-produce it.

    But do not interfere in the freedoms of others. That is all I’m saying. Please learn the concept of tolerance.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  92. samira

    it has been scientifically proven than cows dung n urine has lot of  medicinal quality…..thats the reason cow is considered sacred in india……im not interefering in the freedon of others.i m just making people aware about the things which they should know but they dont……….
    baba ramdev has done a lot for humanity.

     
  93. rubal

     
    mother is mother of herchildren but cow is the mother of everybody. She takescare of everybody. Mother feeds her children with milk but cow gives milk for everybody. Mother’s milk cannot be used to make anything, but cow’s milkmakes curd, buttermilk, butter and clarified butter.Clarified butter can be used to make tasty things, whichstrengthens the body. Lord Krishna used to eat butterand lifter the entire mountain on his little finger.cow dung and urine are very useful. Cow dung makes manure and that in turn gives good crops. The farmers pros-per and villages prosper. The country prospers whenvillages prosper. Cow dung and urine make medicines,which cure serious diseases. Mother is burnt on death,but cow’s skin is useful after death also. Cow is greatand is very important.. Cow is useful for every-body. It is very difficult to write about cow, it is likeshowing light to the Sun. cow’s significance is great.The poet says that mother is mother of her
    children but cow is the mother of everybody. She takescare of everybody. Mother feeds her children withmilk but cow gives milk for everybody. Mother’s milkcannot be used to make anything, but cow’s milkmakes curd, buttermilk, butter and clarified butter.Clarified butter can be used to make tasty things, whichstrengthens the body. Lord Krishna used to eat butterand lifter the entire mountain on his little finger.Mother’s urine and feaces are not useful but cow dungand urine are very useful. Cow dung makes manureand that in turn gives good crops. The farmers pros-per and villages prosper. The country prospers whenvillages prosper. Cow dung and urine make medicines,which cure serious diseases. Mother is burnt on death,but cow’s skin is useful after death also. Cow is greatand is very important. She gives us salvation and isuseful from birth to death. Cow is useful for every-body. It is very difficult to write about cow, it is likeshowing light to the Sun. cow’s significance is great.

     
  94. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Samira

    You can mass-produce urine, and yet have beef exports (assuming some Indians don’t want to eat beef). The rest of the world will even export cow urine to India. There is no shortage of cow urine or dung.

    You get what you want, and let the farmer get full value out of his cows.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  95. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Rubal

    Please use your common sense. There are REAL mothers, and there are metaphorical/poetic statements. The cow is NOT a real mother. Please check your DNA. It has very little cow DNA. Far more chimpanzee DNA. Our ancestors diverged from the ungulates a very long time ago.

    Also, 80% of the world eats cows. So they are food for mankind. A valuable asset.

    Just because some one says so doesn’t make a cow our ‘mother’. Please use your reason!!

    Be nice to cows, don’t eat them if you don’t want to, but please don’t interfere with the rights of others to eat them.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  96. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Zero Tolerance for cow slaughter it is such a Heinous crime.Sorry Sanjeev but with this view get me a stamp paper signed with any Punishment written that if FTI would ever come to power leave aside Centre but meagre a State also I would accept any punishment.I mean it Seriously!!
    A political party whose Director/Master-mind is not true to his customs,values and religion.Would he ever be able to be true for his people?
    Ans is NO

     
  97. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    I DON’T care for power. I care for the truth. In invite you to consider the truth and the welfare of India, not ‘customs’ and superstitions. While everyone is entitled to follow their beliefs they can’t force their ideas down the throat of others.

    My goal is to liberate India from its own chains and to make it healthy, wealthy, and peaceful.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  98. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Is this my mistake?I am taught from age 2 that cow is our mother and we must pray her,
    My answer to terrorism, why terrorism can't be eliminated because you could kill the person but not his thought and thinking what you think you become and that Dalit comment kindly check I.P of people sometimes you get email id on google from that all info could be collected to because I had seen many Muslims making vulgar comments in many instances.
    In my view I support Reservation in Govt jobs but they must also do in schools inspite of colleges because without proper study of 11 and 12th crude subjects one can't even think of MBBS or B.Tech that reason IIT's throw Dalit students out every year.You get see college vs minority ministry in newspapers.

     
  99. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dr Gogoi

    Just curious, what subject is your doctoral degree in?

    Anyway, I don’t support reservations. The solutions doesn’t lie with the current education system in India.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  100. Kumar

    Dear Nitin,
    I am astonished and sad after reading few of your comments as the person who is going to launch political party (FTI) and gonna be a 'LEADER' soon.
    Let me highlight few of your comments and give my counter points to it:
    1. Also, 80% of the world eats cows. So they are food for mankind. A valuable asset.
       a) Freedom for any living creature is most important and this is not meant only for HUMANS. Imagine if non human beings had voice.. wouldn't your heart be crying if u hear their pain while killing them.. We human are part of society and our society is a part of ecosystem. If we change our eating habits(positive change) it doesnot detoriates the food chain rather it enhances it. It has been proven that eating a vegetarian give u more Kcal of energies than a non veg food. Then why so called intelligent human go for non veg…It just because of their own selfish needs and taste. Because of these selfish needs we human don't care for our ecosystem/nature and start exploiting them. And because of it we suffer from severe problems like Global Warming, extinction of species(tiger,whales etc), terrorism. Where are we heading… and so called future 'LEADER' like you justify it as freedom…how narrow you guys think…[please don mind I am little harsh :) ]. 
    b)Every religion be it Hindu,Islam,Christianity ,Sikhism teaches peace and respect for every creatures. None of them has ever justified killing of animals for their own taste. How materialistic, opportunist we become ..since 80% people of world eat so it has became staple food….a valuable asset!!! ( How foolish this thought can be…) 
    c) If killing of animals is a virtue of being free to do anything then Smoking,drinking,raping, eve teasing …killing should also be made virtue of freedom…why govern by law…as by ur argument it can be justified as 'freedom'. 
    The underlying point is 'TRUTH'. The truth is to live a life in good way free from drugs,violence, etc…. Mahatma Gandhi once said a person who eats flesh develops quality of being violent etc… I hope and wish u are follower of MK Gandhi.  Baba Ramdev is just spreading and implementing MK Gandhi thoughts. Our society and Indian culture should not be kept hostage to such narrow thoughts of 'freedom to do anything'.  
    2. Today go to any engineering/MBA (include IIT/IIM) colleges in India… Look at the spread and use of Drugs/alcohols/… most of the students is under its grasp. Now the use of drugs can not be justified by the intelligence of these guys. Our Indian culture so called Bhartiya Sanskriti never teaches us such behaviour and lifestyle. Every individual is a part of society and contributes to the balance of society. Society cannot be made hostage to individuals 'freedom to do anything'. If one cannot improve the society then he has no right to abuse the society and culture. 
    3. I want to ask you a question ..How much is the influence of Spiritualism in your FTI ? :) 
     
    PS: Please dont mind if I little harsh at some places… read it casually..
    Regards
    Kumar

     
  101. Kumar

    Dear Sanjeev,
    My previous post is addressed to you(sanjeev) instead of Nitin… 
    Thanks
    Kmar

     
  102. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    Dear Sanjeev
    I don't hold any high profile job status like yours IAS but my educational backround is comparable.
    I am B.tech in industrial production from regional engineering college Durgapur after that I thought to pursue Masters in electronics from IIT Delhi but soon I quitted as my interest was in medical line, from childhood I wanted to become a doctor but in our school biology was not there and my options were limited.To fulfill my long left aspiration I researched a lot and got to know a M.D/M.S in Biomedical engineering from Aiims soon after in my second try I got there.
    Anyways you are creating More enemies than supporter or friends I could have agreed if everyone other had praised you but in your forum more and more people are against you.You Must accept finite Failure on your part but don't loose infinite hope.
    I explained you a very simple exam named AIEEE but it had deep message associated with it to become successful you must be 100%committed to your goal which I see you are Not.
    If you are so concerned about India why don't you do something on ground even on internet  invest some money?You served 19years as senior IAS officer I assume money won't be any problem to you.I would rate Ramdev and subrmanium above you because they are commited to their goal.
    Don't assume me wrong or take personally but sometimes one need to show the mirror for reality check.The pace you are going would ever FTI come up as a party in India.You are trying to justify there is no partiality to Indians in Australia what more vague than this I could expect?
     

     
  103. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Dr Gogoi

    I had asked for the area of your doctoral qualification to find out whether you had learnt about the scientific method and appropriate data analysis techniques. Indeed, you are extremely well qualified and have definitely learnt these methods.

    So what explains a statement like: "I am taught from age 2 that cow is our mother and we must pray her,"

    or: "that Dalit comment kindly check I.P of people sometimes you get email id on google from that all info could be collected to because I had seen many Muslims making vulgar comments in many instances."

    I'm afraid these comments may not match the high standards of your education.

    a) Even if someone is taught that cow is our mother from age 2, what is one's responsibility as a scientific thinker? Do we take this "fact" as a permanent feature of our thinking or do we ask questions? Is the basic point of critical thinking not this: to ask questions?

    b) Re: Kumarkashyap's comments (which is what I presume you are referring to), I have no doubt he is a "Dalit" political activist who has undergone very bad experiences in life. Are you saying that the "Dalits" are not oppressed in India? Please try visiting Dhubri district and as you enter the town there is the sweepers colony. I have visited that place. Children and pigs live together in the most unhygienic conditions one can imagine. No one cares for them. I do. I think we must recognise the facts and thereafter change things.

    I suggest, Dr. Gogoi, that you and I should be talking serious reforms, and not diverting our attention into religious beliefs and other such things.

    Please read my book, BFN and let me know if you disagree with what I've said.

    Finally, "to become successful you must be 100%committed to your goal which I see you are Not."

    I do have a very clear goal, which is that I want the "common" educated Indian to get involved in India's governance. I'm not just trying to lead, which anyone can do, but trying to build leaders for India's future. Anyway, I'm happy to return full time should a method be found. I believe India should be the world's No.1 country. That it is not, is unacceptable.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     
  104. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Kumar

    Sorry for the delayed response. This is going to be short as well since I've got to rush in half a minute!

    a) I do NOT advocate "killing of animals" for the sake of killing them. Please note that some animals are used as food in the world. Indeed, about 90% of the world is non-vegetarian. 

    b) I am NOT advocating freedom without accountability – of the sort you seem to imply. Please read "The Discovery of Freedom" (still a draft). That would destroy freedom. There is no absolute freedom. We can be free only so long as we don't harm others.

    c) "How much is the influence of Spiritualism in your FTI?"

    FTI is intended to be a group of leaders who want to bring freedom and good governance to India. It is NOT a religious group. FTI strongly supports the separation of religion and the state. Please see FTI's religious tolerance policy at: http://freedomteam.in/blog/content/religious-freedom-and-tolerance

    I am a great admirer of Gandhi (e.g. BFN and articles on this blog), but I'm also his critic on mixing up religion and the state. That mixing up, in my view, was part of the reasons why Pakistan came into being. See DOF for details. 

    Regards

    Sanjeev

     

     
  105. nilesh pawar

    Hi sanjeev,
    as u mentioned "Be nice to cows, don’t eat them if you don’t want to, but please don’t interfere with the rights of others to eat them."
    Today you say what if cow provides milk anyone can eat cow. Tomorrow one may say same principal applies to our mothers (humans) and simultaneously also be nice to mother (like Tribes)
    We can’t be professional in relationships. These will lead to animal society.
    We want minimize wars and killing of all kinds of animal and I have heard Ramdev baba once said that all animal killing should be stopped and live simple life with necessary things to maintain to establish peace and balance in nature.

     
  106. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Nilesh

    The principle I advocate – and which forms the basis of the philosophy of liberty – is the ULTIMATE value of life, human life but also respect for animal life. Please read DOF.

    The “extension” you suggest is obnoxious and violative of everything I stand for!

    Animals have been and continue to be FOOD for hundreds of thousands of years. Our bodies are fully designed through evolutionary processes to eat animals for food and therefore survive in the most difficult circumstances as well.

    All I say is that no one is entitled to impose their vegetarianism on others. Why is that so hard to understand?

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  107. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    My ans to present situation with remedy
     
    People in the 21st century generally live a life of comfort. We do not like giving anything away. We prefer to get something, rather than give something away. Unfortunately, in this way we disregard one of the most important of the Laws of the Universe – the Law of Sacrifice.
    In short the Law of Sacrifice postulates that very often we need to give up something of a lesser nature in order to gain something bigger. Sounds like a fair trade, right? Unfortunately, this is not so easily accepted by human psychology. After all, what we currently have is a certainty, right? And what we might gain is only a promise. Who will guarantee that this promise is fulfilled? This would be the role of the Law of Sacrifice.
    The Law of Sacrifice is applicable in many areas of life, and perhaps the most important one of them is the area of personal growth. We all know that personal growth comes through change and change is most often painful. This reality makes people shy away from change – it is painful after all and no one likes pain. However, instead of focusing on the pain we should focus on what stands to be achieved by personal growth. This new perspective can lead us to a new realization, which would make it easier to make sacrifices.
    Perhaps it would be easiest to make sacrifices if we were deeply focused on the object of our desire. When change is a must, only then can someone do the sacrifice. Or as the Roman general told his troops when they landed on the Island of Britain: "Burn the ships. There is no way back. Only ahead." Obviously, with no ships to flee with, they had to change and grow. And they succeeded, which proves that the general's sacrifice was well-designed.
    Finally, we need to learn to sacrifice even our self-esteem for the great purpose we are after. Very often we limit our achievement by our pride or carefulness not to be humiliated. However, self-esteem is someone you would eventually need to sacrifice if you were to achieve your goals.
    As you could see from the above examples the Law of Sacrifice is at least as valuable and important as the Law of Attraction. In reality, however, there are nine other laws of the Universe besides these two. All of these work together perfectly in order to guarantee a fulfilled life. If you are interested in learning more about them, you should click the link below, where you can find a review of "The 11 Forgotten Laws" – a program by Bob Proctor and Mary Morrisey, as well as other related programs. Enjoy attracting the object of your desire and do not mind the sacrifice!

     
  108. Yogi

    After reading some of your writing You remind of a typical class of Intelligent people who is like 
    the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.
     
    do not underestimate the intelligence of our scriptures, saints and common man.
    You want to eat beaf eat , i do not want it and i will not.
    And  the basic point is all living creature has a part of same soul and killing itself is crime.
    if 80% do not follow natures law then let them do that.
    I live in Canada and trust me the life being followed by developed nations is total failure both in terms at personal and society. 
    do u understand the kind of financial crises are they and why.
     
    i have would written a more detailed response and may a better one but it will be shear waste of time 
    reading few books by nehru is of no use.

     
  109. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Yogi

    Re: “You want to eat beaf eat , i do not want it and i will not.” – I have NEVER asked anyone to eat something they don’t want to! Again, a misrepresentation!

    Re: “if 80% do not follow natures law then let them do that”. Indeed, that’s what I’m saying. Let people eat what they choose to. DON’T IMPOSE your views on them.

    Re: “reading few books by nehru is of no use”. What are you talking about?!!

    S

     
  110. Dr Tenzin Gogoi

    About Kumarpushp wasn't I correct? I have pretty long experiance on web there are many softwares by which you could even change Ip in every 2sec{www.Hidemyip.com} etc.
    The comments written by him are Totally vague and I feel a person who is having such poor viewpoint about India without 0.1% of understanding can't be such educated to operate a computer because what he is talking is Impossible Dalitsaan etc
    I feel he belongs to
    1}Muslim Dalit
    2}Pakistani National
    3}Teenager time pass{70%}

     
  111. Yogi

    Sanjeev 
    i am reading most of the comments on your blog.
     
    To SWAMI RAMDEV BASHERS  i would like to suggest 2 things.
     
    1. kINDLY understand first what Ramdev is trying to do.
     
    2. Do you guys have really really suffered in your life In india like millions of Indian do everyday.
    if not then please try some sufferings on your self. 
    i can tell you zillions of ways to fall into problems in India. 
     
    if not then please understand the policies made in / by  "intelligentsia" like you and several others are not going to help masses.
    somewhere i read that you wrote 
     
    If Baba Ramdev truly wishes to achieve a great India he should read my book/s and apply to join FTI. We can then work together. I don't budge from good principles in the name of populism. If deferring to populism was my goal I would have taken a different path in life.
     
    what r u talking, you are not even clear about the hinduism.
     
    I would love to answer you in a very systematic way but will take lot of my time and it will be a sheer wastage. 
    But yes once Baba comes to power he might need a good and honest opposition and your party or you could be one.
     
    Yogi

     
  112. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Yogi

    The great blunder you make is twofold:

    a) You suggest that the Baba knows more about helping “the masses” than I do. That is incorrect. He CAN’T take India to greatness with the current display of policy understanding. I can.

    b) You say I’m “not clear about the hinduism”. I may not know all the thousands of slokas but I know what it stands for. But whether I do or not is irrelevant to India’s progress.

    You are welcome to your views. I don’t force anyone. Just show them the right way. They can choose the wrong way, if they like. No problem! Nehru’s way was chosen for 60 years and India went to the dogs. Now Baba Ramdev’s way can be chosen. Same result. I can’t change India if India is not ready to even read and understand what I’m trying to say.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

     
  113. Neeraj Kumar

    We should beware of such so called intellectuals like Sanjeev Sabhlok as these people will start killing and eatinng human beings also if such thing is allowed by law. And if killing and eating of humans is banned after it being allowed for some time, then these people will protest vehemently of doing so and will treat it as interference in their personal life style.

    Such people have lost complete conciousness and difference between right and wrong.

     
  114. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    Dear Neeraj

    I know that at least some Indians rush to judgement but this surely takes the cake. What are you saying – that there is an equivalence between non-vegetarianism and cannibalism? Are you saying that 80% of the world’s population are cannibals?

    What is it about plain simple English that you don’t understand? How does defending life and liberty equate with cannibalism? Please explain so I understand better how you think. I do hope you are not typical of Baba Ramdev followers.

    Sanjeev

     
  115. Anant

    Hi Sanjeev,

    I went through your blog and believe me I found someone after a long time whose thinking matches mine. I would like to know, if there is any group that is formed by you I can join and contribute?

    Regards,
    Anant

     
  116. Rajeev

    Dear Mr. Sanjeev Sabhlok

    “If you try to ban it in some NE states, you can bid goodbye to these states as a part of India. They will revolt! In many NE states beef is sold on the roadside like any other meat.”

    What are you talkimg Mr. Sanjeev Sabhlok? Haven’t you seen it in any other states? And why are you targeting NE? Do you represent NE states? are you from NE states? what good have you done to NE states? then why are you talking about NE states when you are saying some bad like “They will revolt”. People of other states will remain silent?

     
  117. Kumar

    …..In the end and after Five years we see that every single prediction made by this self righteous author has failed miserably . Not only the BJP and Swami Ramdev are a success but their success is truly historical . Secondly I guess that the author has absolutely zero understanding of Islam. Cow slaughter is NOT MANDATORY in islam. So a ban on cow slaughter in no way stops a muslim from practicing Islam . Infact many muslims have supported Gandhi’s views on a ban on cow slaughter. Also I am begining to question the level of comprehension skills of Mr Sanjeev. The website of the Swami clearly accepts High level technology companies setting up shops in India but he is against zero technology companies like coke, Nestle etc. which do not bring anything new and charge a hefty amount for something like flavoured water . Let me give you an example, I work for Amul, Now Amul’s condensed milk is available for about 15% less than Nestle’s version and let me assure that our product is in no way inferior to Nestle the reason why nestle charges a lot more for the same product is that Nestle is a non indian company and exists only to make more and more profits Thats why ramdev talks about swadesi in the zero technology sector.

     

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