September 16, 2014
Below, for my record, from FB. I have strong differences with libertarians who support SECRETLY breaking the law because they don’t agree with it.
Tax havenry has reached a peak. USA is losing massive amounts of tax. So are all other countries.
“The Internal Revenue Service treats the U.S. Virgin Islands as a foreign country, a designation that when combined with the incentives fuels a legal accounting alchemy in which high-tax U.S. profits are funneled to the low-tax islands. While plenty of non-U.S. havens have come under intense media attention in recent years, there is little focus on the U.S. Virgin Islands, the only nearly tax-free haven in the world to fly the American flag.”
Dalip Kumar Seth Check your own stated liberal premises Sanjeev and be clear that under all current systems there are morally correct grounds to tax individuals or corporates.
Sanjeev Sabhlok Don’t get your point. Pl. elaborate.
Dalip Kumar Seth When the end use of funds is immoral then recovery of taxes for those activities also loses any moral found.
Dalip Kumar Seth Ground
Sanjeev Sabhlok Dalip Kumar Seth you have the choice as citizen to ensure moral end use – at least in democracies like India. There is no basis to deny revenues to legitimately elected governments by tax cheats. Everyone must pay their taxes if they wish to live or do business in India.
Dalip Kumar Seth Your philosophy is on shaky grounds — in ethics ! Going by numbers alone any idea against the present dispensation must be considered unpatriotic. Right ?
Christopher Lingle “legitimately elected governments” is not enough … if tax revenues are squandered, stolen, wasted that is grounds for withholding (“cheating” !?!) on taxes … the true tax cheats are venal, corrupt government officials … when that is solved, then speak about behavior of taxpayers
Sanjeev Sabhlok I strongly differ. If you disagree with the tax regime and DON’T work to change it through the democratic process, that doesn’t give you the right to cheat on taxes. As far as I’m concerned that’s a severe criminal offence. I have noticed earlier, as well, some “libertarians” promoting tax theft. I consider them to be criminals, pure and simple.
Christopher Lingle A dose of Public Choice is in order here … Libertarians are as opposed to theft as to aggression. But they support keeping more rather than is what is rightly earned.
Sanjeev Sabhlok Regardless of all public choice incentives, the civilised free society has to resolve this issue through the democratic (non-violent) process. By all means join politics and change the laws. But cheating/ evasion etc. merely means that the legitimate will of the people on how public goods are to be funded, is willfully denied. Such tax cheats deserve only one place in life: the prison.
Christopher Lingle it is an unfair match … governments have the monopoly on legal use of violence … those that wish to pursue non-violent opposition to governments that might be imposed on them by 51% have few choices other than evasion/avoidance of taxes or emigration … I am truly amazed you
Sanjeev Sabhlok I disagree with the idea that democratically created laws are coercive. I’m not talking about fake democracies like USSR.
Yes, there is a monopoly of govt. on legal use of violence but that’s because we give it that monopoly.
By all means leave a country whose laws you disagree with and which you do not wish to change through the democratic process. If a tax evader/cheat wants to stay in a democracy and make use of its public goods BUT not pay taxes, then prison is the only suitable place for such person. He/she had better leave, rather quickly!
Christopher Lingle emphatically NO! the ones that should leave the country (or be imprisoned) are the venal & corrupt politicians … what proportion of them face that fate … is any country better off if entrepreneurs take the Galt’s Gulch option … which group would any country be better off without … ? you really cannot be serious about this … I know you are committed to being part of the electoral process, but do not let it cloud your thinking!!!
Dalip Kumar Seth First allow creation and safety of Galt’s Gulch. Before seeking my voluntary contribution to its. Growth and welfare.
Sanjeev Sabhlok Let’s agree to strongly disagree on this issue. This is where libertarianism becomes libertine philosophy and becomes anti-social and severely corrupt. I am firmly classical liberal and not libertarian.
Your position is against the rule of law. Hence I reject it
The basic classical liberal tax principle is no taxation without representation. Once representation has been assured, and taxes determined through appropriations bills, the rule of law kicks in. I detest libertarians for their denial of basic principles of the rule of law.
You have ONE vote. You must use it to change the law. Once law kicks in you BETTER PAY UP. Or go to jail. Period. That’s the meaning of the rule of law and of representation.
Full support for crackdown on tax evaders.
Donald Keys Tax is nothing more than theft of private assets by the state to fund its own agenda.
Sanjeev Sabhlok When taxation is WITH representation (that’s the max one can demand) then it is not theft.
Donald Keys If one is forced to hand over a proportion of their productivity, against their will, it is indeed theft. If an individual coercively extracts money from another individual the action is deemed to be theft… so it follows that if a group of individuals calling themselves government does exactly the same thing it is still theft.
Sanjeev Sabhlok The ONLY claim the Americans made (and all reasonable people make) is “no taxation without representation”. Anyone who denies the right of a fully representative government to tax for providing public goods should create his/her own place in a remote jungle, and organise his/her own defence/ roads/ police/ justice at own cost. The ONLY remedy for tax evaders is the jail.
Donald Keys I feel the the instigation of force is immoral. Interaction between people needs to be founded on voluntary cooperation before those people can claim to be civilized. When governments hold their position by legislating a monopoly on coercion, and extracting a portion of one’s productivity, against the will of the producer of that productivity, that is no different to slavery—taking money, theft, taking your productivity, slavery.
Sanjeev Sabhlok “Interaction between people needs to be founded on voluntary cooperation”. That precisely is the meaning and purpose of representation.
Donald Keys Unfortunately, as written above, “The ONLY remedy for tax evaders is the jail.” illustrates that representation is not voluntary. In Australia, even voting is compulsory. There was no income tax until after World War One, and once introduced, taxation has grown year upon year… feeding an ever increasing public sector. There is no moral basis to take from another by force. Currently, the relationship between citizen and government is the same as that between farmer and cow. Governments fight over tax bases and citizenry to feed a greedy and ever growing public service… who supply services that could just as easily be provided by the private sector on a voluntary basis. Taxation is theft.
Sanjeev Sabhlok Donald, that tax EVADERS are jailed is no reason to suggest that “representation is not voluntary”. Only the CRIMINALS are jailed – those who – after representation – refuse to abide by laws. Let them rot in jail. I have no sympathy for such cheaters.
Re: your other points, re: the form and type of taxation, that is subsumed under the right of “no taxation without representation”. It doesn’t exclude one form or other of taxes. Let the representative body decide.
You are free to leave and live in a jungle. So long as you CHOOSE to live in a civilised society you are mandatorily required to pay your taxes. Sorry, your view that tax is theft is NOT valid in any legitimate and functioning democracy. If you don’t like a particular tax, go and change the laws.