Over the past few weeks I've steadily become more aware of Baba Ramdev's work. His avid fans write to me, asking me to watch this video or that.
I don't have time to watch videos, but did watch one – where Rajiv Dixit and Baba Ramdev spoke – and found it amazing in terms of the ignorance about world history displayed by Dixit, and his praise for Mao Tse Tung and other communists! I haven't watched more videos but I do hope that Mr Dixit is not advocating communism!
Next I discovered that Baba Ramdev wants to ban cow slaughter. I found it to be a misguided viewpoint and tantamount to religious interference in the affairs of the state.
Following a link sent to me today by one of his fans I came across http://bharat-swabhiman.com/en/about/ (do read this page).
Now I'm beginning to become concerned! I'm not yet alarmed but concerned that Baba Ramdev might be biting off more than he can chew. It is not necessary for an outstanding yogi to also be an outstanding engineer. So also Baba Ramdev is excellent in yoga but VERY weak in policy. He also has no one within his group that can advise him on policy.
Take two examples:
1) 100% boycott of foreign companies, adoption of ‘swadeshi’
This a seriously misguided. If swadeshi means what it should mean in Hindi, then the website of Baba Ramdev should be shut down, for NONE of it was invented in India. Everything underpinning the website including electricity, the transistors, the integrated chips, the internet infrastructure, the software was developed OUTSIDE India. The atomic theory, the entire physics behind it, was developed outside India.
If he is serious about swadeshi, Baba will also need to ensure that all Indians shut off their electricity and stop using bicycles, cars, buses, trains, and planes. And he should immediately stop using his mobile phone. And so on…
Is the Baba aware of how badly misguided this policy is! He needs to read about how wealth is created. He can start with Adam Smith, or at least chapters 2 and 3 of BFN.
2) We will adopt nationalist thought 100%, and while in our personal lives we observe Hindu, Islam, Christian, Sikh, Buddhist, Jain, etc. religious traditions, in our public lives we will live like a true Bharatiya.
I have no objection in principle with this but this statement is DEEPLY contradicted by the Baba's other statements. What is a Bharatiya? To find an answer to this question we can seek guidance from two other statements: (a) 100% yoga-oriented nation; and (b) ban on cow slaughter (i.e. no one to eat beef).
With re: to (a) I'm a great fan of yoga since it helped me immensely as part my cure of RSI (see my RSI cure website here). I attend at least one yoga class each week even now (apart from a Pilates class, and many other things I do at the gym/pool). But what if someone doesn't want to practice yoga? Is that person not Bharatiya? Isn't such an objective by a political front a blatant encroachment of religious views on the affairs of society?
Second, (b) – i.e. ban on cow slaughter – contradicts the religious freedom of Muslims and Christians (and many Hindus as well) to eat beef. How can people live their personal life as Muslims or Christians but be forbidden by the state to eat beef?
Note that statement (2) is good in principle, but because Baba Ramdev is not an advocate of freedom, he is mixing up good things with bad. Yes, people must not, as statement (2) states, mix their religion in the affairs of the nation. But therefore also, Baba Ramdev can't ask people to take up yoga or forbid their eating beef if they want to – just because he is a Hindu. What if Baba Ramdev was born a Muslim? Would he then say such things? How can our policy positions be based on the beliefs of the family to which we were born?
He is advocating religious interference in the affairs of state, and he doesn't understand policy. India can never become a free nation or a successful nation with such policies.
Tentative conclusion
Nothing from what I have read, watched (on video) or understood about Baba Ramdev so far convinces me that he is capable of delivering even remotely on his fundamental promise of honest good governance. He will fail since he doesn't understand policy and doesn't understand the causes of India's corruption and misgovernance. His team, e.g. people like Dixit do not seem capable of achieving anything either (from what I have gathered so far, given that they also presumably agree to such policies).
PREDICTIONS
True, Baba Ramdev is very popular, and he WILL influence Indian politics. But the results won't be what his followers want. From what he seems to be advocating I can now safely predict the following:
a) His party will take half of BJP's vote but barely a single Congress vote. Both BJP and his party will fare badly in the elections as a result, making it VERY EASY for Congress to win.
b) Even if his party and BJP undertake seat adjustments, and manage to win a majority together and form a coalition, the coalition will fail to provide good governance because neither BJP nor his party understand policy.
In either scenario, India is doomed to further misgovernance. Congress – the totally corrupt socialist organisation will rule, or BJP/Baba Ramdev coalition will rule – which is totally confused about policy.
Solution: The solution for India is very simple. We need a clearly liberal group that understands how to govern and create excellent outcomes for all Indians. That group is FTI. Its policies will ENSURE the abolition of corruption and illiteracy, among other things. No one else can provide Indians what they desperately want: peace, good education, honest governance, health, and wealth. NO OTHER GROUP IN INDIA CAN ENSURE THAT. ZERO CHANCE. IMPOSSIBLE! Sawaal hi paida nahin hota.
Unless – of course, Baba Ramdev's ideas change, and he takes a crash course on policy. He can take a crash course in policy by reading BFN. That should be the first book on policy for anyone who wants to reform India. Just like people need to read a book by an expert physicist in order to understand gravity, so also they can start with BFN to understand policy. I can take yoga classes from him. He can take policy classes from me. Let the best that India can offer be made available to the people of India. Let us not get our Policy from a Yogi, nor Yoga from me!
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Related posts:
- Baba Ramdev needs to think more deeply
- Baba Ramdev’s irrational demand to prohibit cow slaughter
- Is Baba Ramdev wasting everyone’s time!?
- There is no option but to stop Baba Ramdev’s fast unto death
- Baba Ramdev is turning out to be a godsend for the Congress
- Baba Ramdev a good man, but how does one get him to understand good policy?
- My initial views on Baba Ramdev's movement
- Did Baba Ramdev offer to be arrested? If so, the Congress must resign
- Is Baba Ramdev an arm of the BJP?
- Baba Ramdev now shows his true colours – a subversive, violent anarchist
http://freedomteam.in/
Sanjeev — Please know that when Swamiji talks about swadeshi, he intends to refer to the goods that are 'Made in India', and not made elsewhere. He asks that if we use cars, then they should be those that are manufactured in Indian companies — such as TATA or Mahindra. If we use pillows or bedsheets, they should be "Made in India." He does not necessarily refer to those goods invented in India, although that would also be much preferable. Remember when I quoted from Yog Sandesh that he strongly wants the latest technology for his people in India, and that is one of his chief goals after Bharat Swabhiman comes to power? So, it's important that we don't take his words out of context.
Lastly, let me provide you a link to an article from the Harvard Business Review: http://blogs.hbr.org/tjan/2010/08/the-power-of-ignorance.html
To quote from it specifically, please read this:
"A large part of successful execution is rational prioritization and careful planning. But the spirit of excellence in execution gets its energy from conviction. Rallying people behind the idea requires a resolute belief in one's vision. This conviction is obviously easier when you don't know the thousands of ways an idea could crash and burn. You don't lose sleep over something of which you are unaware. Ignorance promotes a fearless conviction that inspires and motivates the team members who are driving execution. Entrepreneurs know that they go into situations with the statistical odds stacked against them, but rationality is overwhelmed by conviction in the possibility of succeeding. Conviction is highly infectious, and people who catch it can and will execute with a greater intensity and sense of purpose in their roles."
Swami Ramdev may not know the hundred ways he can fail, but as the HBR article above says, his conviction will help inspire and influence people to act. It is possible that he knows that 100% swadeshi, or purna-swadeshi (as Gandhi called it), is impossible to bring in India, due to influence of so many counter-cultures. However, his conviction will help bring at least a fraction of it. Rest, the policy-makers will play their role in assisting him (hopefully, people like you, if you change your views!)
Regarding banning cow-slaughter, I have already discussed about this with you. It's a different thing that you (and FTI) do not wish to accept this broad definition of freedom. Let me write here for the readers: "True freedom is when ALL creatures are provided the right to live." If freedom is only restricted to humans, then such freedom is called "restricted freedom," not COMPLETE freedom. This definition, of course, excludes criminals (and terrorists). In case of self-defense, such as when thieves threaten our life, or in case of dire emergencies, like during famine, killing of some creatures can be justified. Banning of cow-slaughter should be banned because cow is one of the many victims who are killed for self-pleasure. And we, as Indians, definitely cannot carry the burden of such violence on our heads, specifically since we have always stood as examples for the world to follow (in terms of tolerance and non-violence). Please don't inject religious debate into this. When we say that animal-killing should be refrained from, that involves pig as well — note that the Muslims are disallowed by their scriptures from eating pig. In that case, their freedom will be protected, won't it be?
Certain animals do deserve special treatment — just like, we, as humans, provide special importance to people who have high positions in the society. For example, a PM is usually given super-security given his contributions to the nation (it's a different matter that, unfortunately, politicians' corruption outweighs their contribution to the nation). A cow has been, and still is, more important than any other animal to Indians. I have already mentioned her benefits to us. Hence, she should be given the right to live, with a bias.
Again, PLEASE DON'T inject religious issue here, although there is religious sentiment involved. It's a duty of EVERY religion to respect OTHER religion's sentiments (that is real tolerance, isn't it?). Hindus should be okay if pig-slaughter is banned. So also, Muslims, in general (by their own reason and inherent goodness, AND NOT by force), will respect our sentiments by allowing us to ban cow-slaughter.
Dear Harsh
1) You suggest when " Swamiji talks about swadeshi, he intends to refer to the goods that are 'Made in India', and not made elsewhere".
Can you please explain why anyone will offer their technology freely to India? If someone invents a bulb, they will sell to India, or sell India the IP to produce it. Why will they give away the technology for free? The other way is to steal IP. That's called piracy, also theft. I'm sure that's not what Baba Ramdev is advocating. So the problem is HOW can India manufacture ANYTHING if India has not produced virtually ANY technology indigenously because of its deplorable socialist education system? ALL high level science books are imported. ALL nuclear and space equipment was imported from abroad. Even electric generators were imported. EVERYTHING. All medical, computer, engineering technology: IMPORTED.
Imagine the computer chip that underpins the internet. NONE of them are produced in India. So what is the Baba saying? That India should de-computerise till it can invent a computer chip?
You say Tata should produce domestically. But TATA did not invent the engine. it copied for a hundred years by importing from Mercedes. Only after 100 years could it learn to make it own engine. Now it can produce so well that it can sell abroad. But what would happen if other countries apply the Baba's idea of swadeshi, so they won't buy TATA's car!
Swadeshi is a very very bad idea. It is called mercantalism and in 1776 Adam Smith showed how dangerous the idea was. It is the MOST DANGEROUS idea for any economy. It can and WILL bring any country down to its knees. It is EXACTLY through swadeshi that Nehru and Indira destroyed India. Read BFN. Look at North Korea.
This idea is also ANTI-FREEDOM. If an Indian wants to buy goods from abroad, for it increases his/her productivity, that is GOOD for India. If you use the internet, it increases your productivity. There is the law of comparative advantage that is applicable. Let people choose whatever they wish to do. Their choices to import/export must be respected (including to drink Coca Cola).
2) Re: interference of religion with the state, I have written at length elsewhere and wont' repeat. Imposing one's religious views on others is wrong. Please let's learn to respect others' views and differences.
Regards
Sanjeev
Sanjeev — The reason we use chips, processors, etc. all imported from "developed" countries is that our ruling government has never encouraged enough research and development. Our scientists, doctors etc. HAVE the ability to invent or make any products, just like Japan, China, America or Europe, maybe even better than these countries. Notice that when we were purna swadeshi before the moghuls and Britishers reigned in, we were one of the most scientific countries in the world.
So, once Bharat Swabhiman comes to power, it will encourage R&D to the point that we will have computers in Hindi language, no English. We will all technology in Hindi only. Look at Japan and China. Let us not follow them in terms of their political philosophy, but let us at least learn swadeshi from them. Swami Ramdev's vision of swadeshi will not come in a year or two. It will take many, many years. This is a gradual process, but eventually will culminate in a high-technology level that Japan is in, or even higher than that. Then, we will even have our own nuclear and space equipment, for sure! Today, India is what it is ONLY because moghuls and the Britishes have raped her. We should look to the past, so that we don't make the same mistakes that our ancestors (kings) made. If Chanakya could create a golden India by looking up at India's past, we too can learn from him and re-create a golden India again!
Note, Swami Ramdev is not as against trade, as he is against establishing MNCs in India. Trade definitely has its benefits. And Swami Ramdev knows it. But, not for now at least. The need of the moment is swadeshi. Maybe, once India is re-created, trade will be beneficial.
My wish is that Baba Ramdev focuses on ONE message throughout his first campaign. That is, Truth. He should start a new Satyagraha of sorts. Being a Yogi, this is his domain and expertise. Just imagine how India will be transformed with Truth. (Because it automatically means end of corruption). I think even if a single policy doesn't change, just end corruption in India, and India will soar ! Truth is a very generic message, so it will build a strong base for him across various sections of society.
I think this is a better strategy than spreading the message thin with various issues like cow slaughter, hindi vs english, swadeshi etc etc. Stay focused. Stay with a single message. If the message is too broad and confusing, there will be too much discussion on peripheral issues, and Baba Ramdev's movement may lose momentum.
@Harsh:
Re: "The reason we use chips, processors, etc. all imported from "developed" countries is that our ruling government has never encouraged enough research and development."
Dear Harsh, virtually NONE of the major inventions in the world were funded by governments. These were PRIVATE enterprises. And to see why a government should NEVER fund R&D please read the extensive evidence and logic provided in the book "Sex, Science and Profits" by Terence Kealey which I have reviewed here (http://sabhlokcity.com/2009/06/304/).
You are wrong about Indian government investment in R&D. It has thrown HUGE amounts of money into R&D which has been almost entirely wasted. Whatever good is coming out of India is through private efforts such as TATA's. That is called learning by doing. Also ALL major things produced in India now are in the private sector, that is why we are able to get at least some things in India.
Re: "Look at Japan and China. Let us not follow them in terms of their political philosophy, but let us at least learn swadeshi from them. "
This statement shows some significant weakness of understanding of Japan and China’s history. Japan was NEVER into Swadeshi. Indeed, since its Meiji revolution, its kings have gone OUT OF THE WAY to attract foreign investment and ideas into Japan. The great failures that have occurred in Japan have been motivated by MITI, which has squandered unbelievable amounts of money in bad ideas. All Japanese technology was imported initially, then their own started. Japan was one of the world's most open economies. MNCs are WELCOMED in Japan.
China's success since 1979 is a very similar story to Japan's. And so on. ALL Asian Tigers too technology (and continue to do so) from wherever it is invented..
Re: "India is what it is ONLY because moghuls and the Britishes have raped her."
This displays very significant lack if understanding of Indian history as well. India is what it is today because of Nehruvian socialism. Tiny countries, big countries, ALL poorer than India have skyrocked to wealth in the last 60 years while India has remained socialist. Yes, in 1750 India was as rich as any other country in the world. But since then, India's ONLY successes have been in areas where it has allowed free trade.
Re: Swami Ramdev is not as against trade, as he is against establishing MNCs in India.
Please realise that today it is NOT foreign MNCs we must think about, but Indian MNCs. Indian companies need to establish branches all over the world. They will take over the world if we let them. The idea of blocking MNCs is so flawed I won't even go into it.
Harsh, you need to read BFN, or a basic book in economics. Baba Ramdev too. Please learn how wealth is created.
And now, let me pause. I'm done. No more repetitive discussion from me on this policy of Baba Ramdev. Let me spend time writing my books. If people want to really improve India, then please learn how wealth is created. That is what I write about. I see all this a result of India's deplorable education system where we don't teach economics to people. India suffers because its youth, its leaders are economic illiterates. (see my post at: http://sabhlokcity.com/2010/03/topsy-turvy-higher-education-system-in-india/ ). I'm trying to bring basic economics literacy to our nation.
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Sanjeev,
I am a new FTI member and not much familiar with its working. I am also retired NRI based in Virginia, USA. Since my retirement I am spending lot of time in Mumbai, India. For last several years I am visiting Mumbai and I am amazed to note that most of the people are very hard working, sincere and honest. It is only the rich people, politicians, businessmen, custom, police and government officers etc who are corrupt, dishonest and crooked. I agree with you that Baba Ramdev policy is not practical. But one big PLUS point he has is LOVE for India and HUGE popularity in India and Abroad. Also he has some valid policy like DEATH penalty for people involve in corruption, rape etc. In spite of corruption etc there is REAL progress in India. I divide INDIA into two category – one private enterprises and other government run enterprises. Whatever progress you see in INDIA is mainly in private enterprises. All Government run systems like roads, bridges, highways, power, water and other Infrastructures are lagging behind mainly due to unqualified, old, corrupt government officers, politicians etc.. I think FTI should work with Baba ramdev to bring changes in India.
Regards,
Arvind Shah
Nice to meet you, Arvind. I haven't heard much from you on the FTI Forum, so I'd encourage you to participate there. We have had a reasonable amount of discussion on Baba Ramdev there.
I have (I only speak for myself not FTI) still not ruled out the idea of working with people like Baba Ramdev. I am beginning to get concerned, though, that his intentions may be good (like Nehru's were) but his results are going to be disastrous unless he learns about governance policy including economics.
I think the way it would work would be that Baba Ramdev (and his leaders) would need to join FTI to display his credentials. The key reason he couldn't do that today is because he is not a classical liberal. That is a mandatory requirement before anyone joins FTI. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he is one. And it may be too hard or too late to teach him anything.
But he is young and intelligent. I offered to explain some fundamental ideas about how India can be reformed to him if he happens to come to Melbourne. That offer remains. In the meanwhile if anyone else can explain basics of economics to him, it might help!
Otherwise I expect he will go his own way (because of the mass popularity), and end up harming India (if he gets sufficient votes; which I question now, because of his divisive statements that will put off all Muslims and Christians voters and all business people). He will eat into BJP votes and if he continues in power unchanged in his policies, I am now clearer than ever before that India can expect Congress to win the 2014 elections easily (unless FTI finds sufficient leaders and builds a counter-challenge to Congress, – or good people like Baba Ramdev change policies and align with FTI).
Regards
Sanjeev
COMMENT ON MY FACEBOOK PAGE
Baba Ramdev does not deserve so much consideration. Money and power are his goals. People don't take his politics seriously. He was fine till he stuck to Pranayama and not beyond.
==MY RESPONSE==
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I partly agree. The reality is that Baba Ramdev has a mass following that can't be denied. Liberals have no mass following, even though they should. Unfortunately, in the absence of robust leadership from the liberals, all kinds of illiberal ideas get ready hearing in India. My hope is to educate and increase the understanding of liberalism, apart from finding leaders.
I do hope you can join FTI and lead. India desperately needs to reform its governance.
Btw, you'll be amazed at how the number of visits to my blog rise when I talk about Baba Ramdev (I've also received hate mail that I've not published). People are very interested in knowing more about him. As I learn more about Baba Ramdev, people also learn more about liberalism. Exchange of ideas is a two-way street. Both sides learn. Hopefully people in India will understand freedom a little better through my blog and books/articles.
Ultimately, however, unless people like you join FTI and actually offer to lead India, expect fatal confusion to prevail.
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Nitin, I’ve edited your comment extensively to exclude harsh phrases. Please be respectful even in dissent.- I have a tough comments moderation policy and can (and will) PERMANENTLY block any commentator who uses particularly rough language. Parliamentary and civil, modest language is the standard here. =====
Aim of politician should be to ensure enough freedom for its citizens. Its seriously dangerous when a political leader wants to 'change' its citizens.
If somebody wants to follow Yoga and be vegetarian, good for him. If somebody wants to wear loin cloth and use only 'swadeshi' stuff, I congratulate him…but it becomes irritating when somebody wants me to follow their great path.
While I have nothing against Swadeshi, is there a guarantee that these swadeshi producers will not spend that money abroad? Is baba Ramdev and his desciples guaranteeing that Tata and Mahedra are NOT going to spend the money they earned in foreign countries?
The world is becoming smaller and all the countries are now closely entangled. You cannot take them apart anymore unless we go back to Medieval systems like North Korea and Afghanistan. If Sensex crashes down in India, it gets reverberated at New York Stock Exchange when the sun rises in the USA. When Microsoft makes a great new product, IT companies in India start looking even better.
We seriously don't want spiritual education from our leaders. We want very simpel things like better roads, cleaner water and accessible education system. And keep that education system simple …I don't want my kid to worry about Yoga subject in his pre-primary school.
Our leaders promise big things without concentrating on smaller but much more essential things.
Let people find their way towards happyness. Country's responsibility is to just provide physical security and freedom to its citizens. Nothing less and nothing more.
Arvind shah says: Also he has some valid policy like DEATH penalty for people involve in corruption, rape etc
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Death penalty for rape and corruption? Now that gives me a jitters.
We are humans and it is impossible to take these crimes out of us anytime soon. The law books that we have are fruit of debates carried out by many intelligent people who have decided punishment for each crime. Asking for death penalty for rape and corruption is a sure sign of stupidity to which a society can stoop to. I suspect that he will propose death penalty for blasphemy too.
Now don't assume that I am supporting crimes…far from it. However, let the court system decide what punishment suits what crime….let not political leaders poke their nose into the business that they don't understand.
Thank you Sanjeev. You suggested that Baba Ramdev (and his leaders) would need to join FTI to display his credentials. It is not the Baba Ramdev to show his credentials and join FTI. It should be other way. FTI has to take initiative and send their representative to join Baba Ramdev's political party "Bharat Swabhiman Party". Baba Ramdev has more credential than FTI. Entire world knows Babaji. Who knows FTI? I am not trying to be rude but that is the fact. I have seen myself how everyday he goes village to village in India and builds up mass follower. Do you know he is going to field his party candidate in each and every village, taluka, city etc.
I am also sorry to read someone commented "Baba Ramdev does not deserve so much consideration. Money and power are his goals". In my opinion in present India he is the ONLY HONEST AND NATIONALIST person capable to bring REAL change. Only problem is he and his leaders are not educated and do not understand management etc. That is why I thought FTI should join his party and guide them in organization, management etc.
Also Nitin Gulhani says let the court system decide what punishment suits what crime. Dear Nitin Indian Judiciary system in India is so outdated and corrupt that they cannot solve any crime. Only harsh penalty like DEATH will teach the lesson to stop our biggest problem – corruption in each and every sector of the society.
Regards,
Arvind Shah
Dear Arvind
I'm not denying that Baba Ramdev is immensely popular. Also that he is a good man, with good intentions. But even Nehru was very popular and he destroyed India despite being a good man.
Good man means nothing. There are hundreds of millions of good Indians. Some, like Baba Ramdev are popular.
Governance is the science of freedom. It does not take its lead from popularity but from logic. The spaceship is not designed by popularity but by experts, else it crashes. The science of governance is VERY CHALLENGING, INTELLECTUALLY. It is not a trivial exercise of saying "Let us hang the corrupt!". That is nonsense. It doesn't work. It is destructive and impossible to implement, even if it were just. Justice and freedom are strongly linked together.
That our systems are defunct is not because people of India are innately dishonest, but because the systems have made them so, because the systems reward dishonesty. Have you read BFN? Please do so. It is crucial that you understand the causes of India's problems before rushing to make policy statements, given that you have recently joined FTI.
Re: who should contact whom – that is not within my control. I definitely know one thing. FTI is NOT a political party and nothing stops Baba Ramdev from joining FTI if he meets the conditions of FTI. On FTI we (including Baba Ramdev) can discuss and agree policy solutions that can then be implemented. I am also happy to explain things to him should he be interested. I can't do more. And note that I am not obliged to run around after anyone just because they are popular. I've got self-respect. If you respect and value my ideas, then come to me to listen. Else do your own thing. I'm not forcing you.
FTI members are also not prevented from joining any political party (except clearly socialist outfits). However, FTI members as a whole will not contest elections unless we get policy agreement. That is the key.
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Sanjeev,
I fully agree with you that "Governance is the science of freedom. It does not take its lead from popularity but from logic". My intention is, if possible to combine popularity with logic for the benefit of FTI. Combination will work wonder to bring change in India. FTI should build up either mass followers by itself or join some political party such as Baba Ramdev's "bharat swabhiman" or any other party. To build mass followers FTI should penetrate all education institutions, corporate offices, etc. all over India.
What India need is educated, accountable, honest, patriotic and capable young political leaders. As I have notice FTI activity basically is computer generated. Most of the members are either NRI or settled abroad. Hence educated middle class, students etc in India can be contacted via email and/or social networking sites like facebook, twitter, Linked in etc.
I am always open minded and flexible and would like to work with anyone who is interested to bring changes in India. India has very talented and hardworking people and have made remarkable progress in last few years.But because of corrupt government system run by old, corrupt and unqualified political leaders, benefits are not reaching to needy people. With present system rich are getting richer and poor are getting poorer.
Regards,
Arvind Shah
"As I have notice FTI activity basically is computer generated. Most of the members are either NRI or settled abroad."
Dear Anil you are wrong on your facts. It looks like you have no clue about FTI and just because you have joined FTI recently you are trying to pass public comments about FTI about what it should do or not do. – WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT DOES. That is an improper approach.
I'm afraid that is not how FTI works. Members are expected to understand things and make suggestions on the FTI forum – and listen to what others have to say. You ought to raise your findings if any on FTI on which you have been totally silent so far.
Your rush to public conclusions and lectures about what FTI should or should not do does not display a keenness to work as a team. I have far higher expectations of you.
You are most welcome to leave FTI if you are going to pass uniformed comments about it without any understanding of what is going on and how it works. I don't think FTI benefits from having people who claim to be its members but have no respect for the team.
Regards
Sanjeev
OK I agree. I acted hastily. I will try to understand FTI working and participate in the forum.
Thanks
Arvind Shah
Thanks, Arvind. No probs. We all rush to judgement – something to be avoided. So I look forward to your considered comments on the FTI forum. Definitely FTI seeks to continuously improve. But the main thing is for everyone on the team to discuss things openly with others.
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Sanjeev,
'Dear Anil you are wrong on your facts. It looks like you have no clue about FTI and just because you have joined FTI recently you are trying to pass public comments about FTI about what it should do or not do. – WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT DOES. That is an improper approach."
You don't know much about Ramdev , Rajiv Dixit and his Bharat Swabhiman mission too…
We all need to think of country first our "Bharat Mata" ..our egos , our self respect are secondary ..
If our Aim is right , as Ramdev's Aim is , and efforts are there .. there are efforts … We will reach there ..
I have put the lines After Watching Whole "Chankaya" Episode
I THink Ramdev is Today's "Chanakya" .
God Bless him and fulfills his mission.
Jai Hind
Dear Vijay
Re: We all need to think of country first our “Bharat Mata” ..our egos , our self respect are secondary ..
On egos, I agree, but I assert one basic principle: our self-respect MUST be above the nation. The nation is created FOR US, not we for the nation.
I trust Baba Ramdev’s “Swabhiman” doesn’t mean slavery for the nation, but self-respect for each of us.
Regards
Sanjeev
Do you know what it would mean to treat the nation first? You would have to give your earnings AWAY to everyone else, and only after FEEDING everyone else you could then feed yourself. That would effectively mean you starve, since you could never finish feeding others (1 billion people!) with your earnings.
Second, if you care for the nation first, then you’d not be earning anything, anyway, since everything you do would belong to others. Therefore you would be giving away your labour and expertise to others for free. In both cases you would starve.
This, by the way, is precisely what socialism requires. Hence all socialist nations starve. Your ideology is socialist. It will fail to benefit either you or India. I do not preach such bad ideologies whereby Indians must starve. I preach the TRUTH. I preach competition. I preach success. I preach greatness!!
Dear Sanjeev
"I trust Baba Ramdev’s “Swabhiman” doesn’t mean slavery for the nation, but self-respect for each of us."
BS is to bring the BHARAT out of the slavery ..
Is Socialism only about "Nation come first"
What We mean about Nation come first ..is I will think of the country before doing anything , If my work will affect in the Downfall of country , or am i putting my self interest before Country..
What I was hinting at , Is If You meet him , I am also trying the opposite there .. Coz I want all good powers to be united. So we can keep our ego ,self respect here , because there might be clashes of different opinions .. If the outcome of discussion is good , then I am sure we have the country out of the grasp of "Congress" …
Ramdev is mainly targetting the others class of voters "Which Do not vote" which is the highest among other categories like Congress and BJP supporters..
With BS principles, On an average I am able to convince one third of congress supporters :).
Zero Technology Swadeshi is important NOW because , without getting into Govt is not before 2014. and WTO IMF agreements are killing out industries … Our Rupee is devalued ..
So Till we cant change policies and get rid of some terms and conditions of WTO , IMF , We need to support our industries ..
We basicly compaign against … PEPSI COLA , HUL , ITC , BATA , "CHEMICAL FERTILIZERS AND PESTICIDE COMPANIES" , NESTLE , BROOKE BOND , LIPTON , CLOTHES AND SALT related MNC companies ..
and I am finding our products are infact better …or similar .. So Whats wrong in giving an try to our products..
Not the Laptop, Internet , and other techno companies ..
For Clothing We prefer Khaadi , It gives good employment and earning to the Basic needs of my country man.. This is an example of putting Country above my self interest .. I prefer T shirt Jeans , But I can wear Khaadi …
Jai HInd
Dear Sanjeev,
I am happy that your exploration with Ramdev's philosophy and organisation has finally led you to this point that his policies are ill-thought of, and have neither sound economic basis nor framework that one build on.
Like a true politician – he has latched on to a couple of hot button issues, which he then proceeds to mangle further –
1. The issue of banning cow slaughter – firstly, this is surprisingly only an urban issue in India. Second, what no one seems to acknowledge in this discussion about killing cows is that it is already illegal to kill/slaughter (female) cows in India for food, unless they are aged and then can be euthanised, being of no further productive use to the farmer – the farmer is no sentimentalist, I can assure you. I will have to dig up the necessary statutes but this is THE LAW in India.
However, you can slaughter bulls and buffaloes in India for food, and also grow them as food – unfortunately, while the bulls may have some supporters, our poor black, wallow in the mud, buffaloes have no supporters, whatsoever – I have not seen a single "Ban go-hatya" poster that has the buffalo in it – and when I accused some "sangh parivar" member of racism on this issue, the response was really Kafka-esque: buffalos are ugly and wont look so pretty on the pictures like our pretty cows! So, Al Kabeer is even free to export buffalo meat – somehow the cow protectors can not be bothered to extend their helping hand to the poor buffalo, which immediately disintegrates their core argument. I also read in some interview of a sangh pracharak saying that foreign cows in India (milk cows) are not similarly protected from slaughter- he probably owned a dairy or two!
And, then you have cow rustlers, who illegally slaughter cows – and many of these illegally slaughtered cows are urban, stray cows whom no one wants to feed or middle-aged cows that richer farmers are disposing off secretively. This is probably less than 0.5% of total beef production of India, although there is no data to substantiate this.
So, those are the real facts of cow slaughter in India. Therefore, my question always been – who actually grows our indigenous pretty, cows for slaughter in India – please show me some facts and evidence. Why should not, instead, launch a movement for allowing cow slaughter, instead of this misinformation campaign?
And, then the second point being that if we are to "ban" cow slaughter, mechanised milk production should be equally and 100% banned – after all, the cows are subjected to even more inhuman conditions in these diaries. And, how is it natural order to keep a cow continuously pregnant so that she will produce milk? And, how awful are humans in drinking cow milk – we are the only species that actually drinks milk beyond infancy/childhood and that too of another species! Yuck! How gross!
2. The second issue of multinationals – and "made in India" nonsense – this is such utter jingoistic claptrap that I am amazed by how many people get caught up in it. Can we list down what all IP we own, and hence can produce legitimately in India? Let Ramdev and all his followers please, first, compile this list before we even *start* to debate the merits of this issue.
cheers
supratim
Okay, here are the FACTS:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/SC-upholds-cow-slaughter-ban/articleshow/1276425.cms
For some reason, this is a state subject. All states except Kerala and West Bengal have a ban on cow slaughter, except when aged.
Bulls and Bullocks were not covered earlier, but this SC ruling upheld the Gujarat State law banning bulls and bullocks, which has since been taken up by many of the other states (typically BJP-ruled).
So, answer me, all oh Ramdev-bhakts, why is this issue not a red herring? And, why is Ramdev not like any other base politician whipping up emotions using a sensitive issue, which in reality is a non-issue?
Thanks
Dear Supratim,
Your views on COW seems you are unaware of the organic revolution …
Bharat Swabhiman , is different from RSS & BJP
Ya there is a ban .. but .. is it not happening in India Illegaly ..????
We criticize or disallow Non Veg to our members. We treat all animals same , No one should be killed for pleasure ..
If whole world follow this .. Global warming can also be reduced ..
and if properly managed , and if globalization is out of food business ..Whole world can be served with Veg food.. Veg food is must .. U can easily survive on Veg food .. but u cant survive only on Non Veg food…
Cow is special , Because she has the capacity of leading for " Organic Revolution" , which has already started.. and which is the most important issue with workers of BS.
I have already explained … eating Cow for pleasure is as foolish as using Super Computers for email
Other medicinal values, this animal has.. is different , This animal is so helpful for mankind , and we are gonna prove this.
We are not sheep .. and if everywhere Cow is a food , It can be in Bharat Also ….
partial understanding of other organization , will lead to such arguments Mr Supratim..
So you decide your thinking , without even understanding others .. What should I think of your policies then ??
Dear Mr Vijay Mohan,
You have tried to side step the issue – valiantly! – currently, I am not even debating the morality or philosophy of eating meat or not (that is a completely separate issue for me).
I am questioning the spurious arguments put forward by all the Ramdev-followers in this forum about India needing to ban cow slaughter – Cow slaughter is already banned in India. So, why is Ramdev using this as his number one issue for Bharat Swabhiman movement or whatever – to me, either Ramdev is ignorant of facts, or worse, knowing the facts, he is still trying to use this as an emotional issue.
Like any other two-bit politico. No difference.
Please answer this specific point.
Thanks
Dear Supratim,
May be I was answering some of the issues in this discussion
We know there is already a ban on Cow Slaughter , What we are advocating is Capital punishment for Cow slaughter.
Its not his number 1 issue.
Thanks!
Answer to Your second Point , you have never listened to him and started making some assumptions and that made you frustrated…
I have already written before . We want to increase the exports where we are best . And we only want to import where we lag ..
Where we can easily find a good substitute or better , why cant we..
to call this in laymen language we call it "ZERO TECHNOLOGY SWADESHI"
below is what U missed again from my previous explanation
Zero Technology Swadeshi is important NOW because , without getting into Govt is not before 2014. and WTO IMF agreements are killing out industries … Our Rupee is devalued ..
So Till we cant change policies and get rid of some terms and conditions of WTO , IMF , We need to support our industries ..
We basicly compaign against … PEPSI COLA , HUL , ITC , BATA , "CHEMICAL FERTILIZERS AND PESTICIDE COMPANIES" , NESTLE , BROOKE BOND , LIPTON , CLOTHES AND SALT related MNC companies ..
and I am finding our products are infact better …or similar .. So Whats wrong in giving an try to our products..
Not the Laptop, Internet , and other techno companies ..
For Clothing We prefer Khaadi , It gives good employment and earning to the Basic needs of my country man.. This is an example of putting Country above my self interest .. I prefer T shirt Jeans , But I can wear Khaadi …
Rest I can only say , my mission is Great India , I am not a member of his Andolan till now , I am outside India now , I shall be coming to India to do smething .. just looking and observing Where should I go to serve my Mother India… I am new in this field .. But still I can say .. you have not listened to this guy ..and the problem is , You dont want to.. This guy has something in it , He can convince 9 out of 10 people . .. and no one except himself can defeat him in coming elections
So if You guys want to get the Great india soon .. The quickest path is with this Guy..
else you need to wait for another elections ..and if he gets really failed with his policies then u may get a chance…..
Vijay:
Capital punishment for cow slaughter is the number one agenda of the Ramdev camp? Are you serious? Really, really serious about this? And, I know it it your and Ramdev's number one point because banning cow slaughter (sic) appears number one on any of these discussions and on any Swabhiman manifesto. And, if you guys indeed *knew* that India already bans cow slaughter – why does your manifesto not say this clearly? Besides you have Harsh above arguing strongly about ENACTING laws for banning cow slaughter.
Clearly, the entire Ramdev camp is either ignorant or misinformed or both about this topic.
Second point: interesting point about the side-step about fighting only certain MNCs. AHaahahahahahaha ….. what a pragmatic stance ….. clearly India's weakness on technology and IP and original research is understood by some of Ramdev's followers, if not all.
However then, my next question to you is: do you propose to ban these MNCs from operating India or would you let the customer choose? You do your marketing and let the markets decide what products they want to buy? Are you going to allow me this choice or are you going to dictate to me?
cheers
supratim
On a factual matter I doubt that cow slaughter is banned (or can be banned) in all states. If you try to ban it in some NE states, you can bid goodbye to these states as a part of India. They will revolt! In many NE states beef is sold on the roadside like any other meat.
Dear Supratim,
I said Its not his number 1 issue …Please read carefully my friend.. you are getting over excited ..
Dear Supratim,
May be I was answering some of the issues in this discussion
We know there is already a ban on Cow Slaughter , What we are advocating is Capital punishment for Cow slaughter.
Its not his number 1 issue.
Thanks!
From Day 1 , Its Capital punishment on Cow Slaughter .. we know very well there is a ban on Cow Slaughter
Then From day one of BS .. its always few selected sectors… ..
. .. I am almost middle of BFN now , started this morning only,,, The more I read it , the more I am convinced Ramdev is right
You have most of the answers in BFN … i will comment in further response.. You can then decide you really want to go for these companies..
Sanjeev You are right ..Its not banned in all states.. But capital punishment will be valid in Complete India. if BS given a chance
Regarding NE .. Just wait and watch …. Ramdev is very Clever shrewd Man … never underestimate him.
Thanks
Sanjeev:
The "beef" usually sold in India is buffalo, not cows. Apparently, all states, except Bengal and Kerala ban cow slaughter – the ostensible thought behind these laws is not to appease religious taboos, but was to protect our cattle livestock from being stolen and being sold as food during the 50's and 60's. This was pre-green revolution, and India's agriculture stock was in very poor shape and the modern, miracle of genetically modified seeds had not yet arrived. Most of the laws date back to those days.
Today, this is largely an issue for and of old men, mainly brahmins – educated youth in the cities do not care. Farmers have never been sentimental about their livestock – the animal lives as long as he/she is productive, and net output is greater than net consumption. It has always been of interest to me to find out how these cow-protection types are going to convince farmers to continue feeding their old cows when they can neither give milk nor be used in the yoke.
And, also notice the silence on milk – the reality today is that a majority of our milk comes either from commercially run co-operatives or private dairies – they will also send cows for slaughter when they can not produce any more milk. All of these vegetarian folks not only want to drink cow's milk, which is probably more un-natural than eating meat, but then force the dairies to keep the unproductive cows and care for them. Wonder what that will do the price of milk?
When these chaps can not even rationally explain the economics of their decision to ban ALL cow slaughter to a farmer or a milkman, we need not bother about their religious or illiberal motives – such a move is NOT enforceable in our markets.
QED.
cheers
Just a Wild thought .. Can you think After WTO / GATT there can be any Free Market ..??
and Swadeshi is only a protest among BS guys ..it will not be compelled on everyone as a Govt ban .. Coz we cant , India Cant , Coz we have signed WTO and many other policies and we are under huge debt..
Dear Supratim
Re: “It has always been of interest to me to find out how these cow-protection types are going to convince farmers to continue feeding their old cows when they can neither give milk nor be used in the yoke.”
The answer is simple: subsidy from other tax payers. This already happens in most parts of India (I think!) where goshalas are set up to cater to these old cows [perhaps 90% of them loiter around on the streets, eating garbage - don't know the statistics]. The government actually funds these goshalas, and of course, the funds have to come from somewhere. There is no free lunch, not even a cow’s – this is the fundamental law of economics. So the choice is basically very simple: let the people starve or let cows starve/eat garbage.
I don’t know if you’ve seen “Baraka” (a documentary movie). I saw it yesterday, and it showed some of the most abhorrent and ghastly views of Indian poverty: tens of people climbing garbage heaps to collect food; and tens of cows/bulls doing the same thing. Clearly human life is very cheap in India, and humans don’t seem to matter.
India has many reasons for its massive poverty – and I’m discovering this one now: confused moral philosophy. Kill a man for eating beef (capital punishment!). Is this the new definition of ahimsa? Is it also from the Vedas? – at a time when beef was the common food of Brahmins? So we pick one aspect of the Vedas (ahimsa) and deny the other; then mix it up so that now it is OK to kill humans?
Regards
Sanjeev
FTI is missing a point here.. Cow never stops giving Dung and Urine… THE MAIN INGREDIENTS OF ORGANIC FERTILIZER AND PESTICIDES..
What are FTI views for Organic Farming ..
What are your views on BT , MONSANTO , KARGIL ??
Miracle of Genetically modified food has already happened my friend .. Dont you see Farmers doing suicides , they dont have even the food they grow…
We will only allow ORGANIC FARMING .. not by LAW ..because we cant change it , signed WTO/GATT but our workers will help farmers using organinc farming . there are chances that first year production will not high .. but within 3 years it picks it back.. THere is no earth of proofs , which say organic farming is the best way in future.
You must watch this documentary by Dr Vandana Shiva .. ( One of my idols)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmiHTx8Yhc8
Its a must watch video for everyone in FTI , it will help changing your policies
Hi Sanjeev/Supratim,
Page 66 BFN , Page 96 in PDF
Inequality is not the same as poverty. Extreme poverty diminishes
our capacity to act freely and reduces equality of opportunity. A free
society needs to take strong action against poverty. On the other hand,
even the most extreme inequality does not in any way diminish
anyone’s freedom if all people are well above the poverty line. In the
USA or Australia, which are relatively freer than India, some people are
extremely rich, but most are at least well-to-do.
This is the condition in India with 84 Million people below poverty line.. TO US this is extreme poverty…hence its difficult to act FREELY.. ALSO India is under huge debt …
Our Swadeshi policy is till 2020… most probably ..that too minimal or on limited categories…
SO FTI can take the power Once BS creates the environment of a FREE and healthy society… If you still feel that policies of FTI are better then BS…
Hi Some news for you!!
Ohh i also have some links for you!!!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/RSS-developed-cancer-drug-gets-US-patent/articleshow/6058657.cms
Cow is not just a normal animal my friends .. There are very strong reasons for this attitude with cows..
I think it will help you and your policies
Waiting or hope
Vijay
Dear Vijay, thanks for reading BFN.
The solutions in BFN (see chapter 6) will ELIMINATE poverty in a maximum of three years, not merely reduce it. The BS ‘solutions’ are likely, from what I’ve been reading so far, to increase poverty.
Re: Health. The solutions in BFN will ensure a minimum good health to EVERYONE (more so the poor) in India within three years, including emergency care for everyone. I don’t any possibility of BS solutions achieving that goal.
Environment: The solutions in BFN will ensure a clean and hygienic environment in every corner of India within three years.
And so on.
The reason is that BFN solutions are based on the world’s best practice and well-incentivised system design.
Please read on. Let’s discuss after you’ve finished the whole thing.
Regards
Sanjeev
Ya Sure!! I am ready for it ..
Did you views changed a little about Cow ..(Its different from others ) and important.
I am mainly interested in you views about agriculture.. I know you will not meet baba , but meet Dr Vandana Shiva , she will help your agricultural policies.. she is not linked to BS in anyway other then the agricultural policies..
How are you going to Counter WTO/GATT ..???
Dear Vijay
You’ll get a sense of my views by reading Prof. Shenoy’s views that I posted today morning, where he also covered agriculture.
I’ve not published much yet on agriculture policy, but let me say this in brief: there should be no agriculture policy, just as there should be no industry policy. By freeing ALL markets we will expect a miracle in every sense of the word in India. Even holding a certain amount of reserve grains can be easily organised by paying the market (as part of social insurance regime). We can easily increase our crop yields while preserving the environment, IF we let the markets free.
Vandana Shiva has unfortunately almost zero knowledge of economics and advocates HIGHLY confused policies (I’ve watched her on TV in the past, and don’t know if she has changed; but I’d rather avoid watching anything she says, unless I see new and improved written work).
India is VERY UNFORTUNATE that our best economists have left India – indeed, forced out of India. Rarely would you find any economist of even a modest calibre willing to stay and teach in India. On the other hand, our economists now teach students across the entire world in the topmost universities! And the world listens to them.
(On that issue, let me guide you to the work of Nirvikar Singh, Bhagwati, and Deepak Lal in particular.) Some of their material is available at the India Policy Institute website: http://indiapolicy.org/publications (I am the honorary Executive Director of IPI).
The closest you get to good economics in the public domain in India is from Parth Shah and Barun Mitra. Listen to them. Read the books their institutes publish! All these efforts of yours will be well rewarded.
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Sanjeev,
I am waiting for your response on WTO/GATT .. I call them terrorist agreements where America is free to terrorise India without Arms …
Definately I will try going through everything you are suggesting.
But To be honest , I didnt like your views about Dr VANDANA SHIVA.. a very respectable lady..
When Now FTI is trying for 2014 not sure you will get there or not .. She is not waiting she is working at ground level , helping Farmers gaining there freedom and Self respect .. So if 2014 u r not there .. what will actualy FTI contribute ??? Whtever knowledge she has of economics but it is helping her help the farmers the base of Indian economics .. I believe if we get agriculture going .. we will attain a real good ground required ot be a great India…
all kinds of person are required in Country..
I read You views About Jansatta and got to your great intellectual journey of life and your passion of your home country ..
So there is a question , How many leaders you have got , and how many Jansatta has??
So if you have to do something for country wihout being in Govt , What is your plan . 2014 is far ..
Best Regards,
Vijay Mohan
Dear Vijay
FTI has no association with Lok Satta. These are different, independent organisations; one is a Trust, the other is a political party. Re: 2014, that is only a goal IF leaders are found and other things happen. Else later. Nothing can be done without right thinking leaders and clear policy agreement amongst them. Waste of time (e.g. Lok Satta’s current efforts). And no, I don’t plan to do anything “on the ground” till leaders are found, although FTI members may do a few small things in the meanwhile.
Vandana Shiva comes from a totally confused anti-capitalism perspective. She doesn’t understand even the step 1 of wealth creation, leave alone step 10 or 20. Her work may be helping farmers, but I prefer the work that Sharad Joshi does. It helps farmers far more. Read Sharad Joshi. He is an MP (although his term is ending soon). He recently published a new book. You may not like what I say about Vandana Shiva, but I haven’t found anything worthwhile coming from her pen to spend my limited time on. These anti-capitalism views are also known as socialist views: I detest them from the core of my heart since they are the most harmful views known to mankind: they destroy wealth and destroy incentives to work.
Finally, re: WTO and GATT. Please be aware that trade is good, and more trade is better. Wealth is created ONLY by trade. It is true that some (not all!) Western countries have behaved very badly re: trade, by sheltering their agriculture markets. But the principle is very sound: that by removing barriers to trade, and lowering tariffs, world prosperity will increase – more so of developing nations like India. I wish there was no need for WTO, but given the existence of strong farm lobbies in countries like USA, it is performing a great job to reform the world’s trading system.
What is your specific objection to WTO? Which act of its do you object to, and can you refer me to the precise WTO document?
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Sanjeev,
I understand your differences from Lok Satta , and I respect them.
BFN is really giving me new reforms in my mind , Some doubts are there , can be discussed later,I may come to some of your discussions or meetings happening in India . I would like to contribute many of my thoughts .. No doubt you have a good plan.
Niether me nor Dr Vandana nor BS is against trade , We all want Export/Import … vandana says , Keep food , water out of capitalism , Dont destroy nature , respect the nature , She has no Objection in other trades , and she only speeks about Food and Wate and environment related stuff.
With WTO e.g.. the rates of Cotton are decided by US Market , which is a lot subsidized and With WTO Agriculture in India is not subsidized , So Farmers put huge cost of production(Chemicals & Seeds) but doesnt get a good yield .and only loss is what they can get .. There is a lot restrictions for Indian Govt to declare femine and drought ..so that Govt cant help the farmers..
The farmers never needed the Govt support ,almost rare before so called Green Revolution.With GR the govt made the farmers dependent on it … GR was also imposed it was not needed..and now after support system removed ,,.. and huge increase in cost of seeds and Chemicals fertilizers and pesticides , the only Way out for farmers is SUICIDE… or Organic farming ..
and many more .. but the place is too small.. Now I will wait of some discussion within FTI and by the time I will go through much of your material.. had a huge learning , definitely going to use this , where ever am I go ..
All the very best..
The farmers never needed the Govt support ,almost rare before so called Green Revolution.With GR the govt made the farmers dependent on it … GR was also imposed it was not needed..and now after support system removed ,,.. and huge increase in cost of seeds and Chemicals fertilizers and pesticides , the only Way out for farmers is SUICIDE… or Organic farming . .
Sorry I don't understand. How much was the total yield before Green Revolution? How much is it now? How much is needed to feed 120 crore people?
IMO, food is still cheap and available in India…unlike those famines 50 years ago, I don't see widespread food issues anymore. Yes, the poverty is rampant, yes, 1000's of kids go to bed hungry but India has achieved some semblance of independence when it comes to food.
I have nothing against chemicals used in farming. Afterall, we Indians take all kinds of medicines to remain alive so why is it so bad if our plants get their dosage of chemicals?
Chemicals (in medicines) are responsible for increasing population of India and so its natural that we use chemicals to increase our foodgrain production.
I have huge reservations about Baba Ramdev and his political ambitions. A road to hell is paved with noble intentions. His ideas are dangerous and while Indians may end up electing him because of his charisma, his minions, who are earning enormous wealth thru Patanjali clinics, will rule India with ruthless abandon and our kids will not have freedom to choose their own path.
I value freedom. I would like my kids to find their own happiness…thru Yoga or without it. I don't want some baba to tell them how to live.
Personally, I don't care about Ramdevbaba but his views are more closer to Hitler in his early days.
Peace.
Farmers suicide have many reasons and one can write a huge book on that subject. To my untrained but observing eye, it all boils down to economics. I come from Vidarbha…ground zero of farmers suicides. It doesn't take much to experience the abject poverty in which our farmers are living. When I visit my numerous relatives, I fully expect to be served bad tea in broken cups and made to seat on cots that have outlived their lives and their children wear clothes that are older than themselves and footwear is unheard of.
I do not have enough courage to eat food in homes of people who are related to me by blood because of my squeamish palate. But I do smoke a cigarette all by myself when I am done meeting them and wonder what can be done for these people and whose fault it is.
The second generation of these folks really worries me. How these kids are going to react when they are exposed to their richer cousins? Will delight or with vengeance? Right now, the poverty is so rampant in India that you can recruit murderers easily and cheaply. Unless there are opportunities for these young men and women to be gainfully employed, they will turn to crime. Today Raj Thakrey talks about invasion by North Indians…before he grows old, he will be talking about invasion from Vidarbha.
Dear Nitin,
You have No Idea What Organic Revolution is And the Horrible effects of Green Revolution.
I myself know farmers who were addicted to chemical agriculture but now they are more than happy with Organic Farming .. They have similar or more production , there profits has increased and there life is much better.
and if you plan to go to villages , where farmers have left chemicals in agriculture and are happy with organic , You will have to check your basics.
You can check work of Dr Vandana Shiva , I am providing you with one documentary film , Please go through it .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmiHTx8Yhc8
The organic farming is a proven solution for checking Global Warming ..
But if you dont want to check other possibilities or other solutions .. No one can help
THanks
Dear Nitin,
I sent my reply before reading your second comment.. I apologize for some statements .
Well I truely believe in Power Of Organic farming .. and I am sure with my experience , that This can be solve most of the problems our famers are facing .. and also Bharat Swabhiman is helping farmers find markets .. So that once they start getting money .. Thay can think of other ways..
Thanks
Vijay Mohan says:
I myself know farmers who were addicted to chemical agriculture but now they are more than happy with Organic Farming .. They have similar or more production , there profits has increased and there life is much better.
If not using chemical fertilizers can produce better results then that should be teh way to go. We have gone much further on the path of chemical farming. It will be extremely difficult to go back to organic farming.
At any rate, I think a way too many people are involved in farming in India. That's sheer wastage of human resources. Farming needs to be converted into businesses and small farmers need to find otehr employment opportunities that will give them better incomes with less physical work. We need to significantly reduce number of people employed in farming sector.
ABout Ramdev baba and his mission, I am not sure whether he is teh leader that we really want. Yes, he has enormous fan following and yes, he is a leading Yoga teacher and it may be right that he got some people to stretch their bodies and better their lives, however, I am not positive that he is liberal enough to run a massively diverse country like India. Polarized leaders like him bow seeds of future problems. I already see beef-consuming Kerala trying to liberate from saffron rule of India.
The best Govt is the one that governs the least. WIth Ramdevbaba at the helm, everything will be governed. What I eat, what I wear and what I do in my leisure time will be dictated by cronies of Ramdevbaba. And yes, I have huge problem with Baba's volunteers.
Patanjali clinics are a huge fraud. You cannot see it when you are sick and are ready to beleive anything. If you have no known diseases and have Rs5000 to spare, I challenge you to visit ANY Patanjali clinic with some phony disease…like you think you have ulcer in stomach. You will end up spending all your money and will get litres of medicines which will do no good.
If you trust Ramdevbaba so much, you must test out the veracity of his claims firsthand. There is no dearth of babas in India and each of them have large fan following and their disciples trust their babas completely. If you beleive that Ramdevbaba's have created some great medicines that beat modern medicines hands down and every Patanjali clinic operators understands about human body than most doctors of medicines, you need to take efforts to test that yourself.
This baba scares the hell out of me. Hopefully my India doesn't suffer due to him.
Hi Vivek
If not using chemical fertilizers can produce better results then that should be teh way to go. We have gone much further on the path of chemical farming. It will be extremely difficult to go back to organic farming.
There are no chances of any "IF" here , Its proven at many places .. i think this is very easy actually , Who in the world does not want to reduce their cost of production ?? and increasing their profit ?? You will see it even before 2014 the elections.. To me this efforts are enough to give him a vote rather than a party who is only promising the growth. and believe it or not , this feeling will be true for most of the Indians.
At any rate, I think a way too many people are involved in farming in India. That's sheer wastage of human resources. Farming needs to be converted into businesses and small farmers need to find otehr employment opportunities that will give them better incomes with less physical work. We need to significantly reduce number of people employed in farming sector.
Let them show the advantages of Organic Farming .. And if our soil and climate is the best and We can export huge amount of organic food (in huge demand). Then let them give freedom to do whatever they want???
Now I will never Vote and Join FTI efforts… if FTI agrees on last statement of yours "We Need to significantly…." Why dont FTI listen to Vandana Shiva and her efforts and use her vast experience to decide something on Agriculture ." To me the 70% of Indian problems will be resolved by her simple advices .. and she is also prooving her advices..
For Baba's medicinal Business… I am not 100% sure about his credibility ..I have some conflicts with him .. and conflicts are natural you cant have 100% agreement to any person in the world..
But i agree to most of his BS agenda …." .. Patanajali and BS are different.. TO me it addresses most prominent needs of India.. Its not that I dont enjoy and promote freedom … thats why I am here in these blogs.. What all I want is these two groups should work together. and implement what is the best..
Dear Vijay
Vivek has nothing to do with FTI (he just discovered this blog 2 days ago, and is just like you: a reader).
Having said his point is generally correct.
Indeed suggestions in BFN will (a) eliminate poverty and (b) make everyone move rapidly towards wealth. That will increase urbanisation. (see my detailed paper at: No. 5 at: http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/almaak/Termpap/termpap.html)
Also have a read of the two blog posts at: http://sabhlokcity.com/category/policy-perspectives/urbanisation-and-local-government/.
One of the strongest indicators of wealth is the level of urbanisation of a society. Freedom leads to opportunities for mental production (not just manual production). The mind produces FAR, FAR more than our mere hands can. An average Australian farmer has an income of Rs.1.5 crore each year. Just two persons (husband and wife) on an average farm manage over 1000 cows, produce lakhs of litres of milk, grow hundreds of tons of wheat, and harvest and package it for sale. Two persons. That’s it. And they have time for leisure.
The mind can produce 10000s of times more than hands. The free society creates opportunities for the use of the mind. One Bill Gates can produce more wealth out of his one mind than 20 crore farmers of India can, together.
Countries in the West did not become rich by using their hands, but by using their head.
So India will definitely urbanise, and quite dramatically, if policies of freedom are adopted. That does not require anyone to tell farmers to move. They will find it MORE PROFITABLE to move to cities.
If organic farming is profitable, farmers will adopt it automatically. You don’t need Vandana Shiva’s confused ideas to tell them to do so. I have nothing against organic farming, except that I don’t buy it for my family, being too expensive and additional nutritional value not being scientifically proven. Let people choose.
Regards
Sanjeev
Thanks Sanjeev,
I agree , these are personal views … likewise i will take your view on Dr Vandana Shiva as you PERSONAL view . and lets discuss with All members of FTI to have FTI's views on her and her model of "Earth Democracy" ,"SOIL NOT OIL"..
Her Words are proof in itself , and whole world listen to her .. she has been termed as "PLANET HERO" by times magazine…
and she is my Hero too…
lets not make views about someone without proper listening/reading and following someones work. I feel such in this Blog ..
Thanks ! rest I am going through your books and other stuff..
Regards,
Vijay
Dear Vijay
Vandana Shiva is from an extreme environmentalist tradition that wishes to impose opinions on others and force things down others’ throats. That is an illiberal and anti-freedom position.
Let the people choose.
By all means have heros. Your call. I have none. I believe that NO HUMAN BEING is worthy of hero-worship. EVERYONE is imperfect. I believe in critical examination of everyone’s views. I believe in using MY mind, not in using others’ minds. The liberal does not need crutches of heros. Self respect above all.
The day when I read that Vandana Shiva promotes free trade, promotes property rights and promotes smaller government I’ll listen to her once again (although that’s what I say today anyway, so isn’t it better for me to listen to myself – or even better, to Hayek? Why listen to someone who has for so many decades gone down the wrong path? Maybe she’ll reform? Don’t think so.)
Btw, FTI is unlikely to accept any envirnomentalist fads, please be assured of that. FTI is still forming, and it is early days, but by no means will we promote fanatic environmentalism. On the other hand, I guarantee that liberalism will protect the environment FAR better than any Green fanatic can. That is a promise. It is based on very sound theory and practice. It is not based on paternalistic views about what is good for others.
Regards
Sanjeev